Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

central Nc

Interested in the feedback on this one. Looking at the grower diaries it appears no 'big hitter' practices this method. I've been doing it for a few years on my garden with increased yields so am going to try it with giants.

Why don't you do it? Is it just too much trouble, not good results, (insert other reason here)? Yeah, I know you shove microbes and fungi back in with a bag, I just want to know results from those who have tried it vs tilling.

5/7/2018 9:21:18 AM

stoughton WI

How will you be adding amendments if you do a no till, I think that a no till would not be optimal for adding slow release fertilizers. And adding liquid ferts may be a bit more pricey for as much as we have to add sometimes.

5/7/2018 1:21:42 PM

central Nc

no till doesn't mean you don't touch the ground. you can scratch in ferts. it just means you aren't ripping up everything 12 inches down with a tiller.

5/7/2018 2:20:37 PM

Caper1388

Cape Breton Nova Scotia

The last two year I haven't used the rototiller just because I've read it's hard on your soil. I do plow the patch in the fall and spring. I started using a garden fork and broadfork to loosen up the soil. I'm not sure if this is helping or not. If it isn't I'd like to know because the rototiller is so much faster and easier.

5/7/2018 4:44:42 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Notill is practical for big scale grain farming. It builds organic matter by not incorporating residues with oxygen. Tillage increases the rate at which soil bacteria turn organic matter into carbon dioxide and leaving the other elements in the soil for the plants.

We add huge amounts of organic matter in the form of compost, manure, etc. So our tillage does not hurt OM content in the soil. In fact, it frees up some of the other elements for our plants.

That being said, I still limit tillage as much as possible. I make one pass with a pitch fork and a day or two later follow up with the mini tiller, after the worms have a chance to go deeper. I do it a little bit at a time to stay ahead of the vines. Weeds are a cover crop turned into green manure. I mow them to keep them from going to seed. I then like to use a thin mulch of straw and grass clippings. Sometimes I spread straw on the grass before mowing to mix it up. Just enough to hold down weeds until the leaves shade the soil. I have greatly increased the worm population. I have many times more worms in the garden than I have in sod or timber areas where I dig worms for fish bait. The soil is getting darker, my OM is going up about 0.5% per year, and the soil is much more mellow.

5/7/2018 5:06:55 PM

So.Cal.Grower

Torrance, Ca.

To get a big pumpkin at the end of the year you need really nice and fluffy soil that goes as deep as you can get it. Its extremely hard to achieve this with no till.

I've always like the thought of no till and have run this by many heavy hitters,,, not 1 agreed it would work for growing a big one.
Now if your goal with 1500 or less then it might work just fine.

5/7/2018 7:43:47 PM

central Nc

Iowegian, true about OM %, but I'm more concerned with non-soil tested aspects like mycelium and food web.

So cal, that is my assumption too but I was curious if anyone had actally tried it. If not, it gives me a good idea for a side by side experiment...

Caper, keep it up and we can compare notes!

5/7/2018 8:31:20 PM

Grittyville, WA

We got into this on the main message board a month ago

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=633554

Glad you have brought it up again. I think that there are two types of no till. One is the hobby garden and the other is industrial farming. I think a side by side comparison would be great. But my soil is already destroyed/ compacted I’m going to have to till it to get good results. With better mulching and cover cropping and taking better care of the soil... maybe I could do a till / no till comparison in the future...

If you can do one go for it!

5/8/2018 1:24:43 AM

Grittyville, WA

I did somewhat improve my soil texture by adding large amounts of straw. I think the straw compost leaches about equal amounts of calcium and magnesium into the soil. The excess magnesium relative to calcium does seem to bind the soil so it becomes heavier. It will have better tilth if tilled, but it won’t take long for the soil to lose all that magesium.

My 1-year-no-till experience: After a year under 3-4” of straw... the texture and oxygen are still not optimal for roots, tons of worms... but the soil is just too heavy still. Maybe I’m doing something wrong or maybe it just rains a little too much here during the winter and doesn’t freeze deeply here so the soil realistically can’t be no-tilled. Still learning... Probably it takes an inch of organic material added for every inch of no till depth so for me I could have 12” of lovely no till soil in 3-4 years adding 3-4 inches of straw or manure per year. Maybe I will try this in one area. Converting to no till might be a multi year project but I’m interested. I believe it could work. But,., it’s not really no till it’s more like pay your worms an inch of food for every inch you want them to till. Call it no till... or call it by what it actually is: it’s slow till.

Off the topic of no till but on the topic of tilling:

I’m curious to see how this works: http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=288621

5/8/2018 2:19:32 AM

central Nc

Whoops, sorry to rehash such a recent discussion. I'll just briefly give my experience with regular sized veggies. I haven't used fertilizers/fungicides/pesticides or a tiller in years, but I will admit I'm not growing in a very large area. I use several 3x8 raised beds (and some non-raised--get to that later), rotating crop families every year on a 4 year schedule. One of those years is a cover crop, and it took me about 3 years to prepare the no till surface. I like to use buckwheat, daikons, legumes, and anything that winter kills. Otherwise, I cover in leaves or straw in the winter and use my homemade compost in early spring to prepare the bed. Rake in and done.

I would like to add I interplant marigold, tansy, garlic, borage, and nasturtiums. In addition I have a nearby planting of dill/fennel/parsley which seems to attract good bugs. I experiment with trap crops as well.

My results since then have been much less weed pressure and higher yields, in addition to fewer losses to disease. I wish I kept detailed logs, but I'm just not that diligent and tend to do everything 'by feel'. The downside to my process is I still have some pests (flea beetles, squash bugs/borers, cuke beetles are the sworn enemies) and blight, but to a degree that I accept.

5/8/2018 9:37:34 AM

central Nc

Glenomkins, speaking of my non-raised beds...I feel ya. We have a lot of clay here and tend to get waterlogged as well. My only suggestion to that is to broadfork it, and use more compost than straw. I only lightly cover the ground with straw and leaves to help cut down on erosion/leaching.

All that being said, I know I know, giants are a different animal. I've already spent more this year on ferts, mykos, and seaweed than I have in the last 10 years combined. Mostly because my new patch has been under grass for many years. Still, I didn't till, but double dug it.

I don't anticipate ever growing a record as I'm just in this for fun (realistically only have a shot at melons in NC anyway and don't feel like chasing Mr. Kent for the next xx years!!) So, why not experiment with different growing methods while I'm at it?

5/8/2018 9:37:41 AM

Grittyville, WA

Yes make it fun, make it fit with your life, and try to learn... you don’t have to copy everyone else necessarily.

I am also trying to figure out the best way to rotate from pumpkins to s regular garden. There can be compatibility between various backyard hobbys maybe a 4’ wise raised garden bed could grow a 500 lb pumpkin.

5/10/2018 5:09:41 PM

n d fan

Peru

If you look at the Pattons patch. I think they are using a soiless medium, and tons of perilite. Their patch is almost like aquaponics, all air and fluffy and super drainage. I dont think they care much about whats in the soil cause they feed the pumpkins what they need to grow big. The least amount of friction the roots have the bigger they will get. I do notill in my veggie garden but im not trying to grow w r fruit. I know that you kill microbes when you till but we add microbes to our soil and fluffy arieated soil lets the roots grow without as much friction. Im probable the worst grower out there but if had the money and time i would do it like the Pattons

5/17/2018 4:08:30 PM

n d fan

Peru

Plus we arent eating the pumpkins, we feed them till they puke and nuke them to keep bugs and disease away. Healthy is notill all organic for eating. Sry for talking too much Phil

5/17/2018 4:16:59 PM

central Nc

Thanks Phil. Unfortunately I don't have the space to separate my giants from my eating veggies, so I won't be using synthetic chemicals. Could be a massive failure, but I predict Ill get some underwhelming numbers (shooting for 300 lb kin, 150 melon, and 6 ft LG--always the pessimist!)

5/19/2018 9:36:47 AM

Engel's Great Pumpkins and Carvings

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Before I retired from NRCS, I was on demonstration comparing long term notill vs long term conventional tillage side by side. The notill was able to absorb water much faster, and you could push a probe much deeper into the notill soil. Less compaction and more worms. Tillage also breaks up soil aggregation, causing increased density, poor rooting and crusting after a rain. Tillage kills your worms and mycorrhizal fungi. Beating the soil to death with multiple passes of a rototiller destroys soil structure.

I notill my sweet corn and cover crops and they do just fine. If you want to rotate pumpkins with other garden crops, corn is a good one for the first year after pumpkins. You could leave the pumpkin vines on the ground over winder and burn them the following spring, then notill your corn. Fire and a year or two rest should prevent future pumpkin disease, and the char from the fire is good for the soil. You can heavily mulch your food crops for weed and moisture control and to prevent soil borne blight on tomatoes. Let the mulch decompose naturally to feed the soil for future pumpkin crops.

5/19/2018 5:49:01 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

So using complete no till method, what is the largest pumpkin ever grown? A lot of inexperienced growers offering advice lately.

5/19/2018 7:28:04 PM

central Nc

Apparently everyone is inexperienced growing AGs with this method.

5/19/2018 9:06:31 PM

Grittyville, WA

Willemijns did not use a tractor or rototiller as far as I know he used only a broadfork. Yes most of us don’t have expert level knowledge. Part of the problem is we’re all talking about our own climate or soil type. We’re all making progress in getting smarter. Someday we’ll be the experts... if we keep trying to figure things out.

5/19/2018 10:12:47 PM

Grittyville, WA

So is the answer 2624.6...? Lol :)

5/19/2018 10:13:55 PM

central Nc

Now that's motivation!

5/20/2018 8:43:50 AM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I definitely would NOT use notill for a competition AG. I learned in a 30 year career as a soil conservation technician that each individual situation needs its own unique soil management plan. Notill is only one tool in your tool box. You wouldn't use a hammer to saw a board or a screwdriver to pound in a nail. So while I notill sweet corn and cover crops, I don't notill AG's.

5/20/2018 8:47:34 AM

stoughton WI

No till may be beneficial to some and not to others depending on your soil make up. Alot of you know of the issues I have been dealing with. I till my patch once a year and I get that crust on the surface which in turn doesn't allow air into the dirt below. Which I believe is making my soil anerobic. Just like in compost tea, you need air to let the good things thrive. Because of compaction in my patch I have to till at least once. I am however having to broadfork my patch in order to break up that crust on the surface and to break up the subsoil compaction 10 to 12 inches down, by doing this I'm hoping that it will add air to the soil and help with better drainage. By adding air I'm hoping my rooting will improve. There also is a bit of a down side to this, I will be exposing weed seeds down deep that may germinate. In my patch the subsoil compaction is so bad that if I dig down 6 inches I cannot even push my finger into the dirt when it is wet. This is something alot of us don't think about. Like in my patch it acts like a pool, holding water in the top 6 inches of dirt for longer periods and with the crust on top it's perfect for bad stuff to grow.

5/20/2018 12:12:03 PM

stoughton WI

If you want to find out if you have subsoil compaction, take a rod of some sort and see how far down you can push it with little amount of force, I use an arrow. In my patch I can can only go 6 to 8 inches in john barlow patch he can go 2 to 3 ft.

5/20/2018 12:15:30 PM

stoughton WI

1 more thing if you have soil like mine or a clay soil, no till is not really an option. you need to be adding organic matter and other things to get that soil loose enough for air to be able to penetrate, maybe only making one pass over your patch with a tiller so your not getting the fine particles that form a crust may help. This is my 12th year growing and yet i still have alot to learn. Just my opinion.

5/20/2018 12:32:56 PM

Big T Hoff

Hadley Ny

Rick , you need to get a stronger bow...

5/20/2018 1:08:42 PM

stoughton WI

Lol right, I need a hobby that's alot less work to.

5/20/2018 1:39:23 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Compaction is a big limiting factor to rooting depth and soil drainage. Tillage tools fluff up the soil they work and compact what is below. My father in law used to plow his flat field, and every fall would get stuck during harvest. Top soil stayed wet due to the plow pan. He switched to a real deep chisel plow. The first year it pulled so hard it nearly bounced him off the tractor. The next year tilling at 90 degree angle it pulled easier. The third year going at 45 degrees it was like a hot knife through butter and he never got stuck again. That's why I use a long tine fork for my AG plants. No compaction. Plus, it doesn't chop up my worms. Worms leave real deep holes to drain your soil, improve rooting, and prevent anaerobic conditions like rick j. has. That's why the broadfork is good for his patch.

5/20/2018 4:44:29 PM