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Springfield, Missouri

I've noticed the 800 McMullen est. (1625 X 1756) going for $60-75 at auction, and the 2145 McMullen (1756 X 1625) going for over $400. Why aren't the 800s and 2145s going for a similar price?

1/7/2017 12:11:42 AM

Grittyville, WA

Well the last 800 I bought was kinda light seed weight ... maybe genes 800 didn't sit on the vine as long but the genetics should be the same. And now the 2600 world record also seems to have an identical reverse cross in the lineup of willemjins seeds. Identical genetics not identical price. Maybe I'm a fool though I've got two of the 800s now

1/7/2017 12:30:45 AM

Grittyville, WA

Maybe people want the name brand even though the "store brand" is the same? There might be a whole lot of 800s out there right now but my guess is the McMullen will basically be used up soon.

1/7/2017 12:34:02 AM

Grittyville, WA

I'm new at this... so dont put a lot of weight on my advice please.

1/7/2017 12:39:01 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I don't know if you recall the 1068 Wallace, and the reverse cross 500 Wallace? But I think it was similar with them. The 1068, commanded a premium price over the 500. Once a seed is proven to grow a "world class" pumpkin, it's stock goes up, and gets grown more, and by top growers. Maybe if the 500 Wallace was given the same opportunity as the 1068, it would have done as well, or better. Then again it may have done worse. We can only guess.
If the 800 McMullen produces some 2000+ lb pumpkins this year, it's demand and auction price should go up.

1/7/2017 2:16:40 AM

Rapid City, SD

one has to bare in mind the fact, these seed auctions and raffles are efforts to help recover the cost of runnning a weigh-off event.

having that in mind....one will pay more knowing what it cost to run a weigh-off

and it is not free....need a scale, fork lift, activity events, permits, security, clean up, prize money, advertizing

all this cost money

1/7/2017 11:51:53 AM

Grittyville, WA

A mix of altruism and competition in figuring how to spend $. Whatever you decide have faith in your own sense and judgement.

1/7/2017 1:46:38 PM

The seeds may have the same genetics but that does not mean they are genetically equal.
Since this is about growing the biggest most people probably figure the biggest under equal conditions have gotten the best genetics.
Like Doug said until the 800 is well proven it will go at a discount.
Did the 2145 not sell at a discount to other unproven seeds last year ?

1/7/2017 3:05:11 PM

Colorado

The 800/2145 Mc is similar to the 1161rodonis/1566 rodonis argument. Both the 1161 were good seeds but the 1161 turned out/produced better.The 800 should be a great seed but it will be different than the 2145. Only two 800's were grown last year(that I know of) and my 800 put 200+ pounds on the Colorado record and did better than my 2145 plant.So if you don't want to spend 400 bucks on a seed the 800 is the way to go.Ive already bought a 2063.5 willigemins cause i'm not gonna pay the price for a 2624:)Oh and I did cross the 800 with the 2145:)

1/7/2017 4:03:37 PM

Colorado

The 800 is a smallish white seed and its mature. I heard that genes gantner plant got vine borers bad so he just let that plant go and still got a mature fruit on it.Great genetics mixed in with his 2145 fruit-maybe the perfect storm:)

1/7/2017 4:08:27 PM

Springfield, Missouri

The 1625 Gantner that grew the 800 was used to pollinate the 1756 H/J that grew the 2145 and visa versa.

So (in people terms) shouldn't one 2145 seed be as much a brother/sister to an 800 as any other 2145 seed? Why is there a need to prove the 800, shouldn't proving the 2145 prove the 800?

1/7/2017 5:46:03 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Spudder not quite sure what you are saying about genetic equality.

Are you saying one 2145 seed has the same "genetics" as any other 2145 seed, where "genetics" refers to the parents?
Or,
Each 2145 seed, while having the same parents, is genetically distinct due to meiosis/crossing over/independent assortment?
Or,
That the 2145 has a genetic advantage over the 800, because the seeds came out of a bigger pumpkin?

1/7/2017 5:52:15 PM

They do not have the same mother/father set up so not brother -sister.
Are all brothers or sisters equally as fast or smart? There is probably a genetic marker that is stronger in one than the other. People tend to grow the biggest until somebody proves the smaller. It is possible that the 800 can pass on their background while the 2145 flames out in future generations.
Small pumpkins can grow big as has been proven many times but usually do not get the chance.

1/7/2017 9:16:51 PM

Springfield, Missouri

No, siblings are not equally fast or smart as one another. We see the same with pumpkins in % to chart, weight, and so on.

"Each 2145 seed, while having the same parents, is genetically distinct due to meiosis/crossing over/independent assortment" (Most true of the three statements above)

The third statement is completely false "The 2145 has a genetic advantage over the 800, because the seeds came out of a bigger pumpkin"

1/8/2017 12:14:33 AM

Springfield, Missouri

Here is my logic that all 2145 seed are as much a "brother/sister" to an 800 as any other 2145 seed, and why proving the 2145 proves the 800.

A seed gets 50% of its genes from mom and 50% from dad. (There are exceptions such as polyploidy and cytoplasmic DNA, but these exceptions don't really apply to the scope of this discussion)

Statistically each 2145 shares 25% maternal genes with its siblings, 25% paternal genes with its siblings, and are thus 50% genetically identical to one another. Despite being 50% identical each 2145 is unique, just as brothers/sisters are unique due to meiosis/independent assortment.

The 1625 Gantner that grew the 800 was used to pollinate the 1756 H/J that grew the 2145 and visa versa. So statistically a 2145 seed should be 50% identical to any other 2145 seed, as well as 50% identical to any 800 McMullen seed.

1/8/2017 12:15:47 AM

The big pumpkin may not have superior genetics but people tend to go after the biggest under that impression. If the genetics are there , it has been proven quite often that small can grow big but people the weight matters to a lot of people whether that is right or wrong.
Some of the best growers look at the genetics (Stelts ,Werner, Mathius)and do not always plant just the biggest.

1/8/2017 7:11:28 AM

Dogliani Italy

Last season I cultivated the seeds, 2 plants 2145McMullen one mutant and one normal plant with no special feature, instead 800McMullen was the best plant in my patch, huge vigorous growth, large branches and robust, ever seen such an aggressive plant, better than many top intersections that I cultivated (2230/2145 / 2109/2102/2096/1916/1756 / ...) the next cultivation season again at least 2 plants of 800 because I think he has a huge potential.

1/8/2017 9:52:45 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

MOpumpkins - your reasoning is biologically correct.

Reciprocal crosses between the same two plants create seeds that are all in the same genetic "family", i.e. they are all siblings, and should be valued the same in terms of genetic potential. (However, to clarify, not all 1756 x 1625 or 1625 x 1756 crosses are equal to the 2145/800; it's plant specific).

Fundamental to this is the understanding that exactly 50% of the nuclear DNA in a seed comes from the father plant and exactly 50% comes from the mother plant, yet each seed is genetically distinct in the way the we normally think of siblings in a human family being distinct; the same parents, but with a different array of inherited traits.

Someone could argue that the maternal line (via the separate circular DNA in mitochondria and chloroplasts) could make a difference. That is strictly-speaking true in many cases, although I don't really think it makes any meaningful difference; all C.maxima mitochondria and chloroplasts are probably highly similar and all of the major maternal lines have grown big fruit. However, in the 2145/800 case, both have the same maternal lineage = 935 Lloyd, so the cytoplasmic DNA are identical in both lines, and that argument is entirely moot.

Given this, the 800 seeds and the 2145 seeds should share the same bell-shaped distribution of traits since they are all siblings in the same family. Any differences we might see are not due to genetics.

1/12/2017 6:22:26 PM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

Grow it and find out is what I say...

1/13/2017 12:16:27 PM

Slate River,Ont. Canada

Last season I grew the 2145 but due to working out of town for two weeks at a time and home for one, the plant never received proper attention. The plant grew about 150 square feet.I did manage to get the fourth on the main started on July 20th and after 65 days I got a 278 lber. that was selfed. I collected the seeds and they are full and have good weight to them.
I'm a grower that always tries to grow a seed from the biggest kin that I can get my hands on but am curious about these seeds.Do you think it would be a wait of time to grow them?

1/13/2017 4:12:16 PM

Only one way to find out. Who knows but smaller have grown over 1000 lbs.

1/14/2017 11:20:04 AM

If several pumpkins of the same seed are grown in the same patch and treated the same , What would account for difference in size and shape?
Are there different strengths of markers on genes that would do this?

1/14/2017 11:23:35 AM

Springfield, Missouri

Spudder

VP = VG + VE + VGE

VP = total phenotypic variation
VG = genetic variation that contributes to phenotypic variation
VE = environmental contribution to phenotypic variation
VGE = variation associated with the genetic and environmental factor interactions

VG = VA + VD + VI

VA= additive genetic variance
VD= dominant genetic variance
VI= epistatic genetic variance

VP = VA + VD + VI + VE + VGE

1/14/2017 6:28:48 PM

Springfield, Missouri

To test factors influencing shape/size of the fruit remove as many extraneous variables as possible. Just grow one plant and set multiple fruit.

Keep in mind that environment can up/down regulate single genes to entire metabolic pathways. Light is a big factor; phytochrome system and auxin degradation. Auxins regulate too many things to list.

1/14/2017 6:29:43 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Heat: Fruit will be stunted if it's too cold, stunted/burnt/aborted if too hot, misshapen or cracked with inconsistent or differential heat (hot top, cold bottom)

Markers are usually 'neutral' meaning they have no impact on genes. I believe you are asking about additive genetic variance, epistatic variance, and epigenetic factors (VG + VGE). Yes all will influence size and shape.

1/14/2017 6:30:05 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Sorta thinkin, that whoever mentioned "bellcurve" might be on it!! I flunked out of the 6th grade, cause I scored 96% on every test... on the bell curve...and all the others scored 100%! I wasn't stupid, but "now in terms of AG growers"...I wasn't the Golden Seed. Peace, Wayne

1/16/2017 5:33:00 PM

Eugene,OR

I was looking through my seed stash the other day & saw a 500 Wallace. I wonder if it would germinate

2/12/2017 7:00:51 PM

Eugene,OR

?

2/12/2017 7:01:42 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Vineman...only one way to find out!! It won't germinate w/out your help!!! Good luck & grow it BIG!!! Peace, Wayne

2/13/2017 12:33:23 AM

Utah

"Why aren't the 800s and 2145s going for a similar price?"

The answer is very simple-

The 2145 exhibited the reason why we grow- It was BIG and it made it to the weigh off, the 800 est did not.

yes they both come from the same genetic pool in terms of future potential- but that doesn't mean that they are "the same".
In the real world one DID and one didn't... and that counts for something, a lot of something, in most growers minds -I know it does in mine (and I know genetic theory), regardless of what genetic theory says.

2/15/2017 2:54:35 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that there is any real logical difference in the proven genetic value of the 2145 or 800, for the reasons I stated before. Given the clear and demonstrated genetic relationship between the two seed: if one did, they both did.

a+b = b+a it really is that simple. 2145&800 = 800&2145

I think that that point isn't obvious to some growers simply because the way we name seeds is so confusing, genetically. That's an issue for another post, though.

But for people who claim to understand and accept genetic theory to say the seeds 800/2145 are different is troubling to me logically. Not picking on gordon here, the feeling must be pervasive among growers because clearly the auction prices and grower interest favors 2145. I'm not trying to be the thought police, but I know some folks are trying to figure this out for themselves, so I'm trying to put it in perspective.

I think the price difference comes down to perceptions or misperceptions. It just doesn't SEEM right that the 800 should be worth the same as the 2145. There are all kinds of psychological reasons for this, I'm sure (2145 > 800 right?... well no that's not right, that's just how seeds are named.). It comes down to the fact that perceptions can overrule logic when logic is ignored. And that seems to be happening here.

I'm on the side of logic, but to be fair, honestly if I had a choice between 2145 and 800, i'd probably grow 2145. Not on a genetic basis, but because I perceive, that other folks perceive, that the 2145 is a "Hot" seed. Offspring of "Hot" seeds might get grown more, and I like my seeds to be grown...etc. But let's not pretend there's any underlying "proven" genetic reason we should do this. The 800 is the same as the 2145 genetically.

2/17/2017 4:45:58 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Thank you for your posts Scott. It's nice to have a heavy hitter who understands genetics and plant breeding. I've been trying to use examples familiar to everyone, rather than jargon, but I do have a degree in the subject matter.

There could be the misconception that 2145/800 are like the following seeds (which are double first cousins to one another, %25 relatedness).

1916 Barron 2014 (2009 Wallace X 1730 Werner)
1790 Wallace 2015 (1730 Werner X 2009 Wallace)
2008 Neptune 2014 (1730 Werner X 2009 Wallace)

Think in terms of having six plants in the field... 2009-A, 2009-B, 2009-C, 1730-A, 1730-B, and 1730-C. The 2009s are %50 related to one another (Siblings), the 1730s are 50% related to one another (siblings). 1916 seeds, 1790 seeds, and 2008 are %25 related to one another. BUT one 1916 is %50 related to other 1916 seeds, one 1790 seed is %50 related to other 1790 seeds, and one 2008 seed is %50 related to other 2008 seeds. (could be more related depending on parents/grandparents coeff of relatedness)

1916= (2009-A X 1730-A)
1790= (1730-B X 2009-B)
2008= (1730-C X 2009-C)

Whereas the 2145/800 are reciprocal... only two plants involved. 1756-A and 1625-A. 1756-A parent in 2145 is %100 related to 1756-A parent in 800 (Same plant), 1625-A parent in 2145 is %100 related to 1625-A parent in 800 (Same plant). one 2145 seed is %50 related to other 2145 seeds and 50% related to 800 seeds. (could be more depending on parents/grandparents coeff of relatedness)

2145= (1756-A X 1625-A)
800= (1625-A X 1756-A)

2/18/2017 1:10:32 PM

Utah

I'm fine- your not picking on me.
I should have worded my genetics knowledge differently.
I have a good basic genetics background- more than the average person on the street. but I'm sure there is a lot I could learn.

"Whereas the 2145/800 are reciprocal... only two plants involved. 1756-A and 1625-A. 1756-A parent in 2145 is %100 related to 1756-A parent in 800 (Same plant), 1625-A parent in 2145 is %100 related to 1625-A parent in 800 (Same plant). one 2145 seed is %50 related to other 2145 seeds and 50% related to 800 seeds. (could be more depending on parents/grandparents coeff of relatedness)

2145= (1756-A X 1625-A)
800= (1625-A X 1756-A)"

- so ALL children of a give set of parent (say people and pumpkins) are exactly the same- and will have the same children? Do the 2145 and 800 have EXACTLY the same genome? or are the both from the same gene pool?
I agree they are from the same gene pool - but I don't think they have exactly the same genes. ???
Correct me if I'm wrong- I'd love to learn more.

If we could take every seed from both the 2145 and 800 and sequence their entire genome - they would be entire exactly the same?

If we were breading humans for height - and we took the tallest man and the tallest woman (not including pituitary disorders) and they had 10 children
- who would you pick for the next generation to continue the experiment? their tallest children or their shortest children?
From what I'm gathering from you both - your telling me that it doesn't matter.

2/18/2017 3:55:33 PM

Utah

I found this article a while back on genome sequencing of a Cucurbita maxima Duch from 2015.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4690373/

2/18/2017 4:02:55 PM

Springfield, Missouri

No Gordon. Please re-read the last sentence of quoted text. Does one 2145 have exactly the same genes as another 2145?

No. They are %50 related. The point Scott and are trying to make is that a 2145 is not more related to a 2145 than an 800... they are equally related... equally related doesn't mean identical... "ALL children of a give set of parent (say people and pumpkins) are exactly the same- and will have the same children? Do the 2145 and 800 have EXACTLY the same genome"...

It means if you have 2 brothers, YOU share %50 of your genes with one brother and %50 of your genes with the other brother, but not the same %50 because you are all unique, but the fact that you share %50 with one and %50 with the other means you are equally related to each (%50=%50)... assuming you have the same two parents, and assuming you aren't a twin to one of the two brothers. If you and your siblings sequenced your genomes you would share %50 of your genes.

2/18/2017 8:20:09 PM

Springfield, Missouri

1790 Wallace 2015 (1730 Werner X 2009 Wallace)
2008 Neptune 2014 (1730 Werner X 2009 Wallace)

In this example the 1790 and 2008 are the same cross. A 1790 seed shares %50 of its genes with any other 1790 seed (because they are siblings), but only %25 of its genes with any 2008 seed (because they are double first cousins).

Relatedness is a matter of perspective... so if you were a 1790 seed you would be less related to a 2008 seed, when compared to another 1790 seed. In this case relatedness is not equal... in other words they are different.

From the perspective of a 2145... its relatedness to a 2145 or an 800 is the same (%50/%50)

2/18/2017 10:47:04 PM

Central Illinois

Isn't each pollen grain different than the next ? Making each seed slightly different than its sibling.Would every flower carry the same exact genetics

2/19/2017 11:21:22 AM

Been looking on web and got some questions ?
Is it possible that the 2145 got a gene where size was more dominant and the 800 got a recessive gene?
What about chromosomes , how do they come into play for traits ?
What about the shuffling that takes place on pollination, or does that only happen with humans?

2/19/2017 1:05:45 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Baitman, the text I quoted was from Gordon's question. Each pollen grain is roughly %50 dissimilar and %50 identical to all other pollen grains from a plant (assuming the plant isn't inbred). Same with female gametes.

Lets do the logic.

Pollen is a gamete so it has half the genetic material required to make a seed. If pollen is %50 genetically identical to other pollen from the same plant, then all offspring from that plant would share %25 of their genes.

If all female gametes are %50 genetically identical to other gametes from that individual, then the offspring of that plant would share %25 of their genes.

IF offspring share the same two parents, then they would share %50 of their genes with their siblings.

There are cases where all pollen from a single individual is roughly %99 identical. This occurs in homozygous isogenic lines. Hybrid seeds are created using isogenic lines to produce F1 populations that are genetically identical to one another, but have heterozygosity restored.

2/19/2017 1:14:16 PM

Springfield, Missouri

If you are having trouble with the concept you can make a chart, and simulate the process of gametophyte production by flipping a coin.

Locus 1
If heads (A)
If tails (a)

Locus 2
If heads (B)
If tails (b)

Locus 3
If heads (C)
If tails (c)

and so on... I would do 10 loci per individual. Repeat this process for 10-20 individuals. Now compare what proportion of loci are the same for each individual to the next. It should be roughly %50, but notice each individual is unique. The more loci there are the closer the proportion of identical loci will be to %50. This is where the bell curve / binomial distribution comes in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

2/19/2017 1:31:20 PM

NE Arkansas

Gordon you do know the reason the 800 didn't make it to the scales was due to it not being taken to a scale... it wasn't damaged... the plant was damaged... it was smaller because of SVB damage to the plant...

2/20/2017 4:21:11 PM

Streator ,Illinois

I did not have the time off work to take it to a weigh-off and it did have svb damage to the main vine and it taped 800 and something

Gene

2/20/2017 10:19:04 PM

Emmetsburg, Iowa

I know a lot of people are buying the 800 seeds now, but it isn't in pumpkinfantic.com. If some one could make one for the 800 that would be great!

2/21/2017 11:17:37 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

added 800 to pumpkinfantic.com

2/21/2017 7:52:00 PM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

I reread the thread... man my head is spinning.. a few years ago we wanted seeds that had the big pollenator i.e. 1161 rodonis .. I still like that way of thought. If anyone has any 800 s I'll grow them and give you some seeds out of her next fall let me know ggantner@wwsewi.com.

2/22/2017 7:30:30 PM

Utah

thanks for the replies. it is a good discussion.

I understand the genetics ... I know siblings are not exactly the same - my writing isn't the best- and i'm sorry if I caused more confusion.
I understand the Aa Bb Cc, %50/%50 stuff. And I understand that all 2145 seeds and 800 seeds come from the same gene pool and theoretically have the same potential.

the original question was
"Why aren't the 800s and 2145s going for a similar price?"
and I stand by my answer - because the 2145 reached 2145 lbs and the 800 only reached 800. Yes I know why the 800 didn't reach 2145 or it's full potential. and I understand the reasons why- as Gene stated- but it could be for those reasons AND genetics (it could have be on the low side of side of the bell curve - when compared to it's siblings). It is possible that part of why it didn't reach its full potential was genetic not environmental.
and for me that is enough of a reason pay more for a 2145 seed than a 800 seed. and plant a 2145 seed over a 800 seed. To me that is a logical answer based on science, statistic and probabilities.

Scott even agreed with me when he said:
"I'm on the side of logic, but to be fair, honestly if I had a choice between 2145 and 800, i'd probably grow 2145."

And if you can't get a 2145 seed- the a 800 is a great seed to get instead.
Again all I was trying to do is answer the original question.

2/25/2017 2:24:20 PM

Utah

All right - I'm stupid ! - can I delete my last post ! LOL
I really do understand the %50/%50
all the seed from the 800 and 2145 are 50% from the 800 plant and 50% from the 2145 plant. and if one of those was genetically inferior somehow - it would still pass on.
I guess what I am thinking is that there is must be some kind of mitochondria mother to child gene. but there really is no evidence for that one way or the other.

so here is my question.
if there are two pumpkins on one plant - and lets they they both reached their full weight potential ... but they are different shapes and sizes.
are the seeds of both pumpkin genetically random from both plants or does each pumpkin have seeds that are more related to it's pumpkin?
do the shape and size of each pumpkin influence the genes in it's seeds. or do they just come from the plant?
I think they are influenced by the pumpkin itself and those traits are more likely to be passed on ?

2/25/2017 3:59:19 PM

Yes , this is a great discussion and thanks for the answers and explanations .

The amount paid at auctions is probably due to perceptions and maybe herd mentality(hope this last comment does not get me into trouble but that is what I see)

2/25/2017 4:13:46 PM

Colorado

Gordon I think your 50/50 statement is accurate.The seeds from any pumpkin grown in a cross between the two parent plants should have the same genetic potential whether the fruit come from the 1756h/j or the 1625 gnt. I'm guessing the mitochondrial dna isnt a big factor in seed potential nor which pumpkin you took the seed from(if the plant had multiple fruit with different shapes or lobe #'s). The genetic potential should be the same but each seed will be different because of meitosis/meiosis effects.

2/25/2017 10:47:53 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Gordon, very interesting question(s).
1. Why would pumpkins be different shapes/sizes on the same plant or cloned plants?
2. Do shape and size of fruit influence genes in seeds?
3. What would influence genes in seeds?
4. How often do mutations occur?
5. How often do mutations change expression of a gene?
6. How do mutations get passed onto offspring?

1. Why would pumpkins have different shape/size on the same plant?
VP = VA + VD + VI + VE + VGE (I have explained this equation in a previous post) Hybrid corn provides a good example of this. Hybrids are created by crossing two distinct (unrelated) inbred lines. Inbred lines are created by selfing a germline for 8 or more generations, at which point all seeds in the germline are almost identical to one another; in essence offspring are clones of the parent they are derived from. So inbred line 1 has the genotype aa, bb, cc, and inbred line 2 has the genotype AA, BB, CC. So what would be the genotype of the F1 generation (hybrid seeds)? It can only be Aa, Bb, Cc... so in essence all F1 seeds are genetically identical to each other. Using this method seed companies can create an endless supply of genetically identical seeds. Now if a farmer in Iowa planted an acre and a farmer in New Mexico planted an acre would they get the same yield? No, because each environment has its own limiting factors, and each environment will activate/suppress different parts of the genome.

2/26/2017 1:32:03 AM

Springfield, Missouri

2. Do shape and size of the fruit influence the genes of the seeds?

No, genes + environment + (genetic environmental interactions) influence the size and shape of the fruit. Genes in the seed are a result of male and female gametes fusing.

3. What would influence genes in seeds?

Mutations.

4. How often do mutations occur?

For organisms with larger genomes the mutation rate per base pair is around 10^-9 per cell cycle. Cucurbita spp. have around 500 Mb (500,000,000 base pairs) (Wyatt et al. 2015). So 1 in 500,000,000 base pairs will mutate for 1/10 to 1/99 cellular divisions. Very small number!

5. How often do mutations change expression of a gene?

Too many scenarios to discuss. You can look up "genetic wobble" "genetic promoters" "insertion/deletion/frameshift mutation" "transposable elements" but generally mutations are neutral or nearly neutral. Short answer is rarely.

How do mutations get passed onto offspring?

Somatic mutations and germline mutations. A somatic mutation occurs after germination, but before gametes are produced. A somatic mutation could occur on one side vine "Mutant", but the rest of the plant would be "Normal". Pollen and egg cells produced on the "Mutant" side vine would have a %50 chance of carrying the somatic mutation to the next generation. It's only a %50 chance because the pumpkin plant has two sets of chromosomes (2n) but sex cells only have one set of chromosomes (n).

Germline mutations take place during meiosis (not to be confused with mitosis). In this case all but one pollen could be "Normal" on an anther... where the one pollen is "Mutant".

2/26/2017 1:32:47 AM

Springfield, Missouri

Going back to 2. size and shape could indicate a somatic mutation, but the chance of that is very very small. I would attribute difference in size and shape to environmental factors and genetic-environmental interactions.

'Pinot Noir' is a grape cultivar that has been cloned for the last 2000 years (speculated time of origin). Two popular somatic mutations of Pinot Noir are 'Pinot Gris' and 'Pinot Blanc'.

2/26/2017 1:50:17 AM

Soldotna,AK

MO what is your background? Impressive knowledge of genetics.Do you work in the field?

2/26/2017 2:48:11 PM

Colorado

MOp how many genes would you guess ag plants have that influence pumpkin size,weight ,shape ,color, ribbing. The fruit traits only-ballpark guess-10,40 ,100? thanks

2/26/2017 8:07:12 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Patrick, I have a MS in molecular breeding. My theses were to identify quantitative trait loci (QTLs) for dormant rooting potential and sulfur sensitivity in grapes. Our pseudo-testcross population was composed of +150 individuals, and we used both single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and simple sequence repeats (SSRs) to map these traits. The advantage of this technology is that we can tell what traits a plant will have at the seedling stage by taking a DNA sample... then remove all plants with undesirable genotypes.

Joe, it's hard to say... If you know anyone who'd like to fund a project (multi-million $$$) I'd be happy to look into it lol.

2/27/2017 2:55:47 AM

Springfield, Missouri

Identifying QTLs relies on good experimental design. My theses dealt with grapes... where it was very easy to keep hundreds of offspring from a single cross alive for multiple years; allowing experimental replications and saving a ton of money/time on sequencing. One big problem is that pumpkins are annuals. Solution is to create two inbred lines with opposite phenotypes for as many traits as possible, and then to create two BC1 populations.

Another problem is that these plants require a ton of space, and data needs to be collected from hundreds of individuals. Ideally I'd want my plants to be all bush or all semi-bush in growth habit... hard to do with BC1 populations. So really I'd have to create 4 inbred lines... it's complicated.

When identifying QTLs it's hard to find minor QTLs... even if major QTLs are fixed (homozygous) in the population you are studying... this is due to environmental factors and error. (lookup heritability statistic on wiki)

QTLs that come into play for weight would include % to chart, days to maturity, PGR pathways, so on. QTLs that come into play for % to chart could include % water, % starch, % sugar, flesh thickness, so on. ball park guess is a lot.

Color: orange/green is a single locus. There are modifier/masking genes that create salmon/blue color. Bicolor genes such as speckled hound or Turks turban. Unsure about genetics behind red, white, and black fruit.

2/27/2017 2:59:15 AM

Springfield, Missouri

The more traits we measure, the more traits we can improve, and the faster we can hit bigger numbers at weigh-offs.

It would be cool if people started measuring the radius for each of the three fruit axes (would require cutting into the fruit); and max/min flesh thickness at stem, blossom, top, side, and bottom of fruit.

I've noticed that the flesh of 1495 Stelts progeny, specifically 1770 Lieber & 1625 Gantner, was very wet/stringy compared to other AGs. I don't know if it's genetic or a coincidence. Has anyone else noticed this? It could contribute to % heavy.

I've also thought about comparing the flesh density of different squash cultivars to see if it could potentially play a factor in % heavy. Logic behind this is starch and sugar are more dense than water, thus flesh with high carbohydrate content could weigh significantly more than flesh with low carbohydrate content.

Could a higher sugar content be causing 1625 Gantner fruit rot out? % heavy? It's worth thinking about.

2/27/2017 3:23:12 AM

Colorado

The 1625's do/can have a different flesh quality. They are thick plus can get bad surface cracks late which can lead to rotting . The carvers love them-thick smooth and soft.Years ago andy wolf grew a very thick/heavy 1400lber that was very tough and stringy/fibrous flesh-prob. a carvers nightmare.

2/27/2017 11:25:49 AM

Utah

thanks for the info- a
and again - sorry for my stupidity !

I should know better.
for some reason I was thinking-
1st generation: 1625 seed and 1756 seed
2nd generation: 2145 pumpkin and 800 pumpkin
3rd generation: 2145 seeds and 800 seeds
Again this is WRONG ! so ignore my incorrect posts.
Sorry if I created any confusion.
please put me in line if I screw up in the future ! lol

3/2/2017 2:59:13 PM

President - GPC

On the 1625 will find out again this year, last years 1625 had fantastic roots, never flagged, will see if the any of those traits made it my 2009 cross Ill be growing this year. Check out the diary. Good thread!!

3/2/2017 4:17:34 PM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

Yup 1495 1625 has a unique flesh to it no doubt I've seen it a few times now... like wood... but thumps like a rock...

3/8/2017 9:10:55 PM