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Southeastern Illinois

The 2145.5 McMullen seems to be one of "the" seeds. If I understand what I have been reading around here then one single grain of pollen made each seed in the 2145. Basically a genetic crap shoot on each seed. Wouldn't the odds be better to get something like the 2145 from 2145.5 seed self pollinated and then run that line of genetics a few generations? That would seem to have the best odds of reproducing the parent to me but I am very new at this.

11/24/2017 6:36:41 AM

Colorado

Virtual your breeding strategy is sound and some people try that approach.So a good seed to try would be the 2002 tobeck. Its never been grown but fits your model very well.Its been hard to get a lot of pumpkin growers to commit to a leap of genetic faith versus growing "proven seeds". If ags didn't take up so much space I believe youd see more growers trying good theoretical strategy and less practical keeping up with the joneses seed selection.

11/24/2017 11:55:38 AM

Upper Strasburg, PA

Andy Wolf made a 2145 x 2145 (sibling) this year. One plant produced a 1700+ and the other plant produced an 1800+ and both fruit were heavier than the measurements projected. That seed might be worth a shot....

11/24/2017 12:20:23 PM

Southeastern Illinois

Thanks guys. I have a 1501 Barlow (2145X2145) thanks to a very generous member here. I was considering growing that with the intention of self pollinating it for a few generations and see what develops. Wanted to make sure it was a decent plan thanks for the feedback.

11/26/2017 6:28:01 PM

Gays Mills, Wisconsin

hey VV,
the 1501 was cut Aug 10th for Iowa State Fair...good plant and kin....on 1800+ pace for sure...good luck

11/26/2017 8:01:43 PM

Germany

When selfing, you are trying to refine particularly desirable traits. Basically, the 1501 Barlow should be a good starting point. However, be aware that selfing could also refine the disadvantageous traits. Let´s assume (as a simple model) your plant carries the following genes: A, A', B, B', C, C', D, D', and the genes A, B, C and D are the ones you want to have in your final cross (a plant which is A, A, B, B, C, C, D, D), whereas A', B', C', D' are the rather disadvantageous ones. Now every seed could bear combinations A, B, C, D; A', B, C, D; A', B', C, D; A', B', C', D; A', B', C', D'; A, B', C', D'; A, B, C', D'; A, B, C, D'; A', B, C', D'; A', B, C, D'...etc., and the same would be true for each grain of pollen. Hence, from your first cross (x self) you would have to grow a great number of plants (because each of them has highly different genetics) and then self them again, and when you find out the best (out of your maybe 20 plants), then grow the seeds of this plant the next year. That said, just selfing, growing one seed and selfing again may produce a better cross, but it may produce a cross with a refined set of disadvantageous traits as well.

11/27/2017 12:50:38 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Pumpking makes a key point. Selections is required in all breeding plans, including selfing. That is... you shouldn't just self, grow one seed, self it, grow one seed from that, self again, grow one seed, etc. Ideally 15-20+ plants would be grown from the selfed seed and the best fruit identified at the end of that first year. Seeds from the top fruit should be planted 15-20+ times the next season, top fruit selected again and seeds planted again, etc.

But even if you can't get 15-20 seeds grown out to a full competition fruit, planting 2 or 3 seeds and selecting the healthiest plant at an early stage should go a long way in keeping the duds at bay, if not making significant advances.

11/27/2017 4:55:51 PM

Southeastern Illinois

Very interesting Cornhusk thx for the info.

Great points Pumpking I will definitely keep that in mind. Just looking for ole lady luck and a spin of the wheel in a sense. Will definitely not be taking any chances with that seed and try to plant it at just the right time. Have some other seeds to try some early gambling on.

Yes bathabitat if I get some seeds this year it will definitely be an ongoing project for several years. I will be growing other genetics also I plan to cross the 1501 to and possibly hit something good that way as well.

I was thinking of probably 4 different AG's this year with varied genetics and crossing the group somewhat. Try a self on the 1501 and other crosses and pick best pumpkin from there. Easier said than done I know...hard enough just keeping them alive and green lol.

11/27/2017 5:33:09 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

VV & all, I think several years back some one said...genetics is just a crap shoot? Might have been Pap Wallace? Breeding strategies are fun, but you never know if you have the "golden" seed. ? Lot's of different growers have made progress w/ breeding...Orange, heavy to chart, Just Big ole Slungers (2K#+), are a few of the varieties of breeding projects! Some day in the future, there might be a lucky Platinum seed that is perfect shape (round), perfect color (Orange), weighs 20% heavy to chart, and makes it to the scales at 3K#!! I am guessing this is in all of our dreams!! Peace, Wayne

11/29/2017 12:50:49 AM

Germany

PW, there´s a bit of truth in everything. The 1855 Holub squash clearly tells that breeding can give you a decent result in merely a couple of years. There was a deliberate cross of a plant with big and heavy genetics (probably the best candidate at that time, the selfed genetics of the 1725 Harp which grew the 2009 Wallace) and a plant with heavy pumpkins and green squash background (and here the breeding starts, for this plant it was important to pick one which actually shows that it has some green squash in its genes). Thereafter, a season of "hidden squash" followed (pumpkin x squash gives a pumpkin-ish pumpkin), therefore at thtis stage it is important to at least select the strongest plant out of many seedlings, and then self it. Thereafter, 25% of the seedlings will produce green squash...again one needs to grow many seeds and then select...both for green and for strength. The result was the 1844 Holub. Without a decent breeding strategy (for example, by growing just one or two seeds of the new cross the next year) this wouldn´t have been possible (to achieve this goal within the minimum number of years...in fact, it was the minimum number of generations which eventually gave that WR squash). However, the offspring of the 1844 clearly tell that there´s more complicated genetics behind the green squash color (not just one set of genes that need to be refined), because some of its offspring looked like white pumpkins (sort of) rather than green squash.
As to "genetics is always a crap shoot", this is so true as long as you have a very limited number of seeds available, because every seed is different, and breeding starts with selection...one needs to be able to select. One needs to be able to select from the variety of crosses available, and one needs to select from the seedlings out of a great bunch of offspring from the same cross.

11/29/2017 2:11:14 AM

Germany

Let me explain this with some examples: The 1725 Harp was (in my opinion) an outlier in the bell curve of productivity of this seed stock, this plant was probably one of the best from the 1385 Jutras offspring. Did Christy Harp start a handful of those seeds and select the strongest seedling? If yes, then it was the beginning of breeding, if no, then it was a crap shoot. Christy Harp selfed it. Did she do that because it was the best plant of the patch? If yes, then it was breeding, if no (maybe just because of limited availability of male flowers) then it was crap shoot. Finally this cross turned out to be just awesome. We need to step a generation further (to the 1725 seeds which have been grown...successfully). Ron Wallace grew more than just one or two of those 1725 Harp seeds. Did he grow all of them with the same success?...then genetics had to be homogeneous and the more important tthing would have been his grower skills. However, both played a role. He certainly started more than just one of those seeds, and the he selected the strongest (which then, in combination with his grower skills, produced those big and heavy pumpkins).

It will be tricky (don´t want to say impossible) to do some breeding for just everything (big, thick, round, orange, shiny, disease resistant...) within a couple of years. One would have to have alot of room for many many plants (for selecting), and alot of time (for refining the one or the other trait in a first breeding strategy, and then doing another couple of breeding cycles when combining and refining for the next goal).

11/29/2017 2:11:19 AM

Germany

oooops, the "1855" in my first line needs to read "1844". Bloody typo...

11/29/2017 3:26:25 AM

Germany

In 2015 I had grown 6 different plants on my AG patch. The two most aggressive ones finally turned out to produce sterile males. Therefore, even picking a plant is a bit tricky. One should even try to grow more than just one plant from a seed stock, let them grow until they produce flowers, and then stick with the strongest plant which isn´t sterile.

This year I had started 3 seeds of the 1803 Hoelke. Two of them in a first set of seedlings, the third one as a back-up. The first two plants went into the big patch, because they looked very similar. It took a while before I could tell that one of them had a problem (being a rather slow grower, producing ribbon vines), and therefore I decided to go with the racehorse with decent vines. A couple of weeks later this plant made heaps of troubles (got sunscald again and again), something I didn´t see early, because it hasn´t been so warm in early spring. Finally, this plant produced a fruit which went about 10% light (in spite of the heavy genetics I had expected in the 1803 Hoelke seeds).
Fortunately, I had kept the 3rd plant (the back-up) in a little corner of my garden. As the other plants it was almost killed by hail end of June, but then it recovered nicely, it never had any sunscald problems, and it produced two little genetics pumpkins which went 13% and 19% heavy with respect to the new OTT chart from 2017. Now, after the season is over, I know that this would have been the best out of the three plants which should have gone into my competition patch. Ideally, for breeding one should grow many many plants from the same seed stock under the same conditions, and then make decisions when you know the character of the plant.

11/29/2017 3:39:53 AM

Southeastern Illinois

Yes PW I would agree as I sort of said above. That being said not all dice are created equally. The dice labled 2145 seem to be the hottest in the game at this time. They are hitting the numbers more often than others. A selfed 2145 such as 1501 Barlow should have a better chance of being like the 2145 than other genetic seeds. It could be that neither of the 2145 parent seeds of the 1501 passed the 2145 magic or part of the magic on to the 1501. But I would say that is less likely than the possibility that the 2145 genetics were passed along.

I would say somewhere buried in the 1501 genetics the 2145 could be hiding. Since obtaining the 2145.5 McMullen is highly unlikely for me in the near future or anytime the next best thing I would think would be 2145X2145. Odds are somewhere in that seed the genetics have at least been partially passed on. Sort of like a grandchild being nearly a clone of a grandparent. The genetics could skip generations like baldness etc. There could be environmental factors that created the 2145 which was grown around 230 miles from where I am located.

So from my perspective it would be worth my time and effort to try and coax some of those 2145 traits out of the 1501. I can dedicate 25% of my giant pumpkin program this year to that gamble and play with other genetics crossed with the 1501 as well. I think it is a worthy toss of the dice with possible great results. Will definitely learn something no doubt lol.

11/29/2017 7:30:33 AM

Southeastern Illinois

Pumpking thanks I was wondering about seedling selection. That would seem to be the hardest part. Normally I don't select the most aggressive seedlings in other plants I grow from seed. I usually look for shorter stout plants in the group. Pick the middle of the bell curve sort of. But the edges of the curve are likely to have interesting genetic traits and crosses some good and some bad. It would seem to me that most of the seeds in the middle of the curve would have the best odds of passing on the original genetics but I am far from understanding genetics just going from grade school memories here...lol.

11/29/2017 7:44:44 AM

Germany

The middle of the bell curve isn´t bad, but if you want something special you probably should look for something special. Of course, the most aggressive ones may also turn out to be horrible creatures with brittle vines, ribbon vines, growth too fast for the perhaps weak root system etc. etc., therefore it´s still a good idea to transplant more than just one and then see how they cope with the real life patch situation for a couple of weeks.

11/29/2017 9:24:16 AM

Southeastern Illinois

Hi Pumpking my thoughts were that a plant strives to reproduce desirable traits and pass that along to the next generation. My guess would be that the middle of the bell curve would have a higher chance of reproducing the parent plant because the parent plant was trying to pass its genetics along. So my thinking would be to not use the special looking ones from a 2145X2145 because I am looking for the original normal 2145 that it might produce in the bell curve area. An out lying specimen would be different from the normal (middle of bell) thus less chance of being like the parent 2145. If I was wanting something different from the parent then I would look to the edges of the curve. Does that make any sense?...hard to explain what I mean.

11/29/2017 1:17:10 PM

Southeastern Illinois

I don't have control of the bell curve for the 1501 that I have but I will for any seeds it might produce. So from my plan above I would be looking at the largest group of similar seedlings as a good choice to try to get some of the original 2145 genetics as well as looking for other even better traits in the out lying groups. I definitely agree that many seedlings are needed to judge any meaningful results. AG's protect their secrets because of the vast space and time required to do proper selection. So in the end it is still a crap shoot but perhaps I can increase my odds a bit.

11/29/2017 1:27:54 PM

Germany

Oh yes, I definitely understand your point, but be aware that you cannot get the original 2145 (which grew the 1501) out of that seed (neither out of the 1501 seed nor out of any of the seeds in your 1501 x self cross), because your 1501 seed does not contain all of the genes which had been in the 2145 plant that produced the 1501. You cannot recover those genes which haven´t been included in this seed, but you can try to get new (and hopefully more productive) combinations out of the set of genes your 1501 seed carries.

11/29/2017 2:21:54 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

PW's point about the 3000 lber is a perfect example of why, as a general rule, we should self almost everything. Yes that 3000 lber is the goal, however if it's crossed with a dud, we may be back to the drawing board. At pollination time, one can't know how any particular plant will turn out. Selfing ensures that when that 3000 lber comes along we get a good cross on it and high potential seeds result.

Pumpkin genetics is a crapshoot in that luck is involved considering the small number of plants we grow. Selection and selfing improve our odds of getting something meaningful; it's the weighted dice we need.
Outcrossing is a crapshoot, because at the time of the cross there's no way of knowing how those plants will do even if they are "good" seeds to start with. The individual plant characteristics of a cross matter a lot.

11/29/2017 4:05:05 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I agree with Pumpking almost entirely, but I think starting with the same seed family is not necessarily needed. (I'm not sure that's what he's saying, but just to clarify.) Selection can be done within any group of seeds/plants.

And even if an individual grower can only grow one plant, we can do selections for next season from any available seeds from crosses that anyone made, so we all benefit.

11/29/2017 4:17:44 PM

Southeastern Illinois

Ok now I see what you are saying Pumpking. Yes I am aware I can't recover the 2145. My hope was that the 1501 would have enough of the good traits from the 2145 that it would be closely related and have a good chance of making a great genetic line. Being that it is 2145X2145 there would good odds it would be similar to the 2145. That is a better way for me to put it thx. I like the way bathabitat put it as weighted dice.

11/29/2017 5:45:47 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Boy, am I getting an education!!! Peace, Wayne
Thanks to all!!

11/30/2017 1:39:56 AM