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British Columbia, Canada

I was reading some older threads today talking about the gradual fading of the non 845 Bobier maternal lines. Aferwards I was curious to see if that trend is still continuing so I collected data from pumpkin fanatic and here's what I found:

In 2019, 2020 and 2021 there was a combined total of 209 pumpkins weighing 1800 lbs of more. I was unable to find the background of 4 of them so they won't be included here.

So of the remaining 205 pumpkins, 167 of them contain the 2145.5 McMullen maternal line in their background. That line goes as follows: 845 Bobier -> 1068 Wallace -> 1385.5 Jutras -> 1288 Wallace -> 1381 Checkon -> 1057.2 Howell -> 1756 Howell / Jolivette -> 2145.5 McMullen

Of the 38 pumpkins that don't contain the 2145.5 on their maternal side, 16 of them have the 1756 Howell / Jolivette, so it's that same line again just without the 2145.5.

Of the remaining 22 pumpkins that don't have the 1756 on their maternal side, 17 of them have the 2009 Wallace. Most of them were grown on either the 1686 Stelts, 1806 Sperry, 1938 Sperry or their offspring. The 2009 line goes as follows: 845 Bobier -> 1068 Wallace -> 1385.5 Jutras -> 1725 Harp -> 2009 Wallace

That leaves just 5 pumpkins over 1800 lbs since 2019 that don't lead back to the 845 on the maternal side via the 2145.5 or 2009. Those pumpkins are:
-1846 Rose 2020, 846 Calai line
-2030 Kisamore 2021, 846 Calai line
-1887.5 Johnson 2021, 846 Calai line
-1956 Graham 2021, 845 Bobier line. A mixed squash and pumpkin line without the 2145.5 or 2009. It does however have the 282 Scherber which was grown on a clone from the plant that grew the 2009 Wallace.
-1966 Johnson 2021, 845 Bobier line without the 2145.5 or 2009.

So the answer is yes, I found that the trend is continuing.

1/15/2022 11:57:18 PM

Grittyville, WA

https://lifeofplant.blogspot.com/2011/03/mitochondrial-dna.html?m=1

Mindboggling. The last paragraph... it seems only the highest level academics might really understand all the cytoplasm magic.

1/16/2022 6:29:28 AM

Grittyville, WA

Going back farther, maternally everything is 355 Dill?

"(The 355 Dill) was the mother to the 575. The 355 was a squash, but the 575 plant had the orange trait dominate while the Neily had the green trait more. That is what male was crosses into the 752.5 {the 509 Neily}. The 935 also is a decendant of the 671 Gancarz. The 671 was from a 390 Gancarz, and a good bet would be it was a cross like the 355 X 492, meaning squash X pumpkin resulting in hybrid vigor. The Gancarz and Dill genetics were both quite isolated from each other at one time, thus making them great to cross together. The 671 in the 935 threw a green 574, then 589, then the third time an orange {recessive} trait came out on Len's 752, which he crossed with Brown's 699 plant {an offspring of 674 Waterman which is an offspring of the 472 Waterman which is an offspring of Alan's 579 which was a Dill genetic, to the best of my knowledge}."

1/16/2022 6:46:58 AM

Bloomington, IN USA

Jordan, I have been burning up Pumpkinfanatic trying to confirm what you are saying.
Other fruits from the 846 Calai line include the 1834.5 Vincent 2016, 1827 Rose 2018, 2075.5 Connolly 2016, 1961.5 Sperry 2015, 1914.5 Sperry 2017, 1813 Northrup 2013, 1807.5 Stelts 2011 & 2106 Schmit 2016.
This just goes along with what you are saying, that there are just not many sizable fruits coming from this maternal line.
This is particularly disappointing when you have a monster fruit like the 2106 Schmit that just does not have any large progeny either as mother or pollen donor. Of course, that is not unusual as there are many other examples of this in seeds that are not in this maternal line.
One would assume that this maternal line is relatively lacking in mitochondria or chloroplasts. Supposedly, plants with fewer chloroplasts are more sensitive to high heat. I wonder if anyone has observed this in these plants.
Finally, are we sure that this is real & not related to chance or simply fewer growers with exceptional talent growing these seeds?

2/15/2022 5:20:03 PM

Bloomington, IN USA

Would there be any point in trying to grow out more fruits from this maternal line to attempt to resurrect it?
The reason I ask this is because the 2106 Schmit only has 4 fruits recorded where it is the mother. And other seeds such as the 1914 Sperry were not widely grown. Or do the plants from this seed show other undesirable features? It is notable that Mike used that seed as a pollinator but not as a mother.
Interested in your take on this.

2/15/2022 5:31:14 PM

Grittyville, WA

@ Materdoc regarding chloroplasts I would think a darker green leaf would be more sensitive to heat, (assuming it could pick up more infared wavelengths too.) I did have a case of lighter and darker green plants and the darker green one was the more sensitive plant, and the lighter green one produced more. This proves nothing, but consider that many desert plants have a light silvery appearance. I would think you would want the most pale/silvery leaves possible if you were growing in, say, Arizona. Enough of my 2 cents. Back to the topic...

2/15/2022 7:47:06 PM

British Columbia, Canada

It's hard to say to be honest. Some people believe there's no difference between maternal or paternal genetics while others think there is. Personally I think there is a difference although I don't really have any evidence to back it up. I just think it's a good idea to have a little genetic distinctiveness here and there and I like the idea of trying to revive maternal lines that have ended.

It's worth noting that the 898 Knauss maternal line seems to have ended which it is a bit unexpected it me as it had the 998.6 Pukos and 991 Urena to keep it going. Both were heavily planted and very successful seeds. You don't have to go back very far though if you want to try to revive it, the 1369 Breznick 2017 is the most recent large 898 fruit that I could find.

2/15/2022 7:51:12 PM

Grittyville, WA

I planted the 1492 Gibson 2007 and it was an awesome plant. And very orange.

I culled the pumpkin at 30 days but it had a few viable seeds. It was crossed with an aggressive 1415 Haist plant, which is the lineage that gave rise to the big Haist pumpkins. The line hasnt died yet, but its in a coma/on a ventillator.

2/15/2022 9:37:26 PM

Stanwood, Washington

Luis Garnados grew an 1123 Werner 2005 this year which is in the 898 Knauss maternal line.

https://tools.pumpkinfanatic.com/PumpkinsSeedGenetics.php?PN=1276.5%20Granados%202022

12/7/2022 6:21:02 PM