From

Location

Message

Date Posted

President - GPC

Wanting to increase Ca, drop some Ph now at 7.8, got clay soil. Is it tilled in or left on top the soil? Any bad things about it?

11/19/2006 7:34:09 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

What is the current Calcium level like? We use Gypsum around here on riad edges to nutrelize rock salt. Ideally the rate for this is 150-200 lbs/1000 sq ft surface applied.

11/19/2006 8:03:58 PM

Vancouver Washington

gypsum is going to raise your ph....Isn't that right Doc or tremeor..?

11/20/2006 12:41:44 AM

Vancouver Washington

sorry about the mispelling Tremor

11/20/2006 12:42:20 AM

Vancouver Washington

doesn't anything with a a real high clacium content make soil less acidic

11/20/2006 12:47:24 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

Gypsum won't raise your PH.

Phil

11/20/2006 6:40:32 AM

Michigan

Wiz, I am also told that the gypsum will help leach salts from the addition of manure.

Tremor, would this mean we should use the same rate in our patches (150-200 lbs per sq ft)? Planning to add 160 lbs today, but wondering if I should go back for more!

~Jessica

11/20/2006 1:00:08 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I've heard that you need a lot of gypsum to make much difference, but 160 per sq. foot would probably be extreme. ;-) But 160 per 1000 square foot, possibly if the soil test recommends that.

11/20/2006 1:11:10 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Of course, everyone has an opinion...

http://d-outlet.coafes.umn.edu/docdrainage/discussion/00000094.htm

11/20/2006 1:19:05 PM

President - GPC

Dang,

I have spent the good part of the weekend reading and finding information on lowering soil Ph, and increasing Calcium... I have found almost every argument for and against....how confusing......and frustrating....I have found one site which is the local college extension and their 100 pages of info which I will attempt to read tonight, it appears to be great information check it out:

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/Pubs/Garden/07840.html

......whatever I do will be in moderation. I Thank everyone for helping me out, in the long term I have learned alot and only experience will prove it wrong or right......If I grow big......I done good......lol

11/20/2006 1:48:40 PM

Michigan

oops! I meant per 1000 sq ft!

~Jessica

11/20/2006 5:06:49 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Wiz!

Yes, I've been reading these things on the web for years, and unfortunately they lead to more confusion than enlightenment. It would be nice to actually learn something without needing to try to filter someone's hidden agenda. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe someone could read all 20 million documents and posts, and tally up the results??? (lol)

Meanwhile, while I'm told, my calcareous clay soil "has all the calcium any plant would ever need", at the same time I see soft fruit and tomatoes with brown spot. Looks like calcium deficiency to me. Of course, another document will tell me that my calcium is tied up due to the high pH. So, if I spray my leaves with an organic chelated calcium product, will the residue cause me more grief with higher pH? And, can a plant really take calcium in through the leaves??

At the end of the day I quess I need to get the results of my soil test, then take the best knowledge I can find, MODIFY that with your own gut feel, then make a plan and go for it....

Oh, the only sure answer is to keep adding organic matter.

11/20/2006 5:36:29 PM

SF Bay Area, California

Gypsum has little or no impact on ph if the ph is higher than 7. I don't recommend more than 10 pounds per 100 square feet tilled-in in a single application. Apply it once at that rate now and then again in the spring before planting if still indicated in your soil test.. Use soil sulfer to lower ph. Good luck,

11/20/2006 5:56:47 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I will admit this... most of the things I've read, when written in the context of clayey calcareous soil, are against the use of gypsum. When they're written about other areas, other soils, you get the standard list of benefits. Of course, my questions about calcium chelates remain..., I've made up my mind that I'm going to try it, at least on some of the plants next year.

11/20/2006 6:20:59 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Why is the ph high?

11/21/2006 3:01:11 AM

That State Up North

I used 80 lb/ 1000 sq ft and applied that amount for three consecutive years, then applied 130 lb/ 1000 sq ft. I also used Sulfer to lower the pH. I applied about 3.5 lb/ 1000 sq ft of sulfer. I had a pH of around 7.5, and droped it to 6.8-7.0. My calcium levels rose, and in the end my tissue tests increased from around 2% Ca to 4-10% Ca depending on my sampling. This was on heavy clay soil that had been amended with copious amounts of manure and compost for several years

good luck

Nic Welty

11/21/2006 8:21:52 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Tremor gave a presentation in Niagara a few years back nd although I can't locate the notes right now The numer of 7.2 sticks in my head as a dramatic line of cutting off other nutrients. If I recall the line starts to go up at a 45 degree angle from here and raises even more as the ph number rises. 6.8-7.2 is were you want to be. Your soil test suggests that you could use a little more calcium but I would use the gypsum lite and go with something that would bring down the Ph to a level were all the nutrients are available. 21 % CEC is great that will probably drop with the addition of OM but might help get your Ph in line. GrowEmBig! Chuck

11/21/2006 8:30:25 AM

President - GPC

Thanks folks, I retract my earlier comment on loss of endo Mych loss with gypsum as every other article read has contradicted him.....funny.... I find 10 articles 3 neg, 7 pos I go with the 7.... Without first hand experience its the best we can do.....Ill get my Ph down with addition of sulpur, add gypsum to leach salts adding a bit of Ca, I believe it will help breaks up the clay, Add a bunch more chopped leaves and several bails of spag peat moss for more OM and a Ph nuetralizer....., spray it with liq fish ferts with molasses..... till all in, water it, let it go over the winter....then retest in the spring.........

11/21/2006 10:01:50 AM

President - GPC

Yes Cliff Warren my tomatoes have done that also, Im needing to get that Ph down and see what becomes avail, but my Ca rate is low per the test.....So we add the gypsum for that and most everything I read says its great for that, depending upon what manufacturers gypsum you use depends on changing of the Ph, I have become a label reader, the High Yield Bag of Gypsum contains 22% sulphur... so thats where the PH dropping is coming from..... This is rocket science......lol
Grow'em BIGGER

11/21/2006 10:06:53 AM

western PA

How much salt is too much salt in the soil??

11/21/2006 10:58:31 AM

Utah

axc - the pH is naturally high is many western US soils.

wiz-
I think people have been giving you the right advise. my patch was new in the fall of 2002. ph was 7.8 - pH buffer was 7.4. Ca was listed very high at 5677 ppm. P was at 39 ppm. K was at 44 ppm. Mg was 351 ppm. CEC was 29.3. OM was at 4.1 %. My soil was a medium heavy to heavy clay. I tried growing without much success in 03. you can check my diary if you want to see what happened. in the fall of 03 I added to my 2600 ft patch: about 15-20 lbs of elemental sulfer, 200 lbs of gypsum, 88 lbs of azomite, some liquid Ca and 36 yards of horse manure (about 1 foot over the entire patch). In the spring I added 100-200 lbs of 20-20-20. I also shaded the entire patch. I grew a 906 lb-er which was the new state record and 3 over 800+. In the fall of 04 added 18 yards of horse manure. In the spring I added another 18 yards of horse manure, 150 lbs of gypsum and 100-150 lbs of 20-20-20. In 05 I grew two over 900 lbs. and one over 800+.
reference ... http://www.ipga.us/Utahtta.htm ...So I think I have been doing something right. Could I have done some things better ... for sure. In the fall of 05 I tested my soil again... pH was 6.8. pH buffer was 7.2. Ca was 3503 (yup it has gone down but it is still "very high") P was 165 ppm. K was 346 ppm. Mg was 276 ppm. CEC was 22.9. OM was 9.2%.
It's time to test again this year...
but I know my soil is much better than when I started-(even though the CEC went down.) it is still clay based but it is not a heavy clay anymore. OM has gone up. pH is much better. I've been adding lots of OM every year. More leaves and less manure. (to avoid to much P)
Honestly I don't know if adding gypsum has helped or not. But it's pretty cheap and I'm pretty sure it hasn't hurt any. I think it is the large amounts of manure and other OM that has really helped bring down the pH and improved the soil structure.

11/21/2006 11:09:12 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I think the key to all of this is the amount of free lime you have in your soil. Does your soil test provide this data? I'd like to make a database of this among those of us who are interested.

For fun experiment, (not real data) try the vinegar test.

11/21/2006 12:32:16 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

This one says that gypsum + calcareous clay = gypsum + calcareous clay (no benefit):

http://www.wtamu.edu/~crobinson/DrDirt/gypsum.html

Here's one that says, "Soil scientists have found that as long as solid lime is present in the soil, it is not possible to decrease the pH.":

http://www.plantanswers.com/garden_column/march04/1.htm

Yes, gypsum does seem to be a miracle drug, but not if you have free lime (calcareous) soil.

11/21/2006 12:49:56 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

OMG

I absolutely agree that folks with an agenda often cloud the waters. I see it all the time in "the biz". I hope no one has such an issue here.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) raises soil Calcium without altering pH & also leaches salts.
Limestone (calcium carbonate) rises calcium & pH. Some limes (dolomitic) also deliver Magnesium.
Sulfur is used to lower the pH.

If a calciferous soil has a lot of "free lime" then lowering the pH is going to be just about impossible with a "reactive agent" like sulfur.

Some farmers who deal with these problems resort to Zinc sulfate to lower the pH but I have no practical experience dealing with this.

In such cases I am going to stand my ground that adding massive quantities of non-calciferous soil is the best solution.

The best bet would be to find a local crop advisor/agronomist/soil scientist that has practical first hand experience with these soils.

I am NOT going to make any recommendation on this soil without the test report in my hand & my favorite PhD on the phone. LOL Calciferous soils....what next? We really do reach a wide audience at BP.

11/21/2006 1:36:47 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Tremor,

No, I'm not talking about you or anyone else on this list! I really appreciate your targetted and informed posts. We're all learning. What I mean to say is that when you google "calcareous", you get 2.4 million hits and almost 2.4 million different opinions. (By the way, it's calcareous and not calciferous (unless there is something else I haven't learned!))

So, anyway, I love where I live and don't anticipate moving again in my lifetime. I also love this hobby. I think my only practical approach is to keep adding organic matter (going easy on the manure because of salts) and hopefully see my annual weights go up: 600, 620, 650, 680, 700.... and maybe break 1000 before I die. ;-)

11/21/2006 1:49:49 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Cliff, Wiz and all. This is a topic which I have been studying for a few years now. Calcium deficiencies are most troublesome for all of us would be heavy hitters. I too have been led down the garden path in several different directions. The search for the Lorenzo's oil of AGP's is sometimes littered with garbage though.
When researching this problem I try to stick with journals and articles from scientific periodicals. They provide the most widely accepted thoughts of researchers and are backed by test results. Recently dated papers of such materials are extremely important too. I have a number of good links and bookmarks to such sites that I use often in my spare time. Another good resource is the citations listed within the articles. They can led to much good related and interesting information.

Another consideration is that after a lifetime of study a Doctor is asked the question about how he acquired his knowledge. His answer was that 80% of his knowledge was gained through only 20% of the resources provided to him. The other 20% of his knowledge was much harder in that it was found in the other 80% of resources and it took a lifetime to acquire.

11/21/2006 5:44:46 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I have just touched on a couple of thoughts in my previous post. Some day I would like to add to the confusion by writing a paper that could further cloud the waters. My head is full of such misguided wisdom about this topic. however lacking any science background it too would only serve to further muddy the waters.

My present belief on BER and BES relates to stress and moisture. Surely you have heard of this before. I have read this in several articles. However in the past few months I have been intrigued by weather and it's affects on the plant and its developing fruit. My thought is that Bes is caused mostly by decreases in air humidity levels after the passage of a cold front and not by a sudden influx on moisture into the plant. Increased transpiration out of the leaves directs the plants mass flow to the leaves for cooling thus diverting the Ca away from the fruit. It is much more complex than this though. I don't understand the disinformation about trans-location of Ca from the leaves. There is much information that disputes this thought.

Someday I will get time to post all the articles and research I've done these past five years.

11/21/2006 6:11:03 PM

President - GPC

Folks Ill do the vinegar test and report upon that. I have found a great article that I would like to share on organic composting that tells me exactly why my potassium went way up http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/030202/03020208.html
chapter 8. Makes alot of sense, Great stuff....check it out
.....manure.....high in K and some salts.....What I do think is my soil Ph will come back in line here.....it was 7.1....we will wait and see.....I will be putting in the gypsum because I do need more Ca, and to leach some salts, 3 bails of canadian peat to help lower the Ph and provide OM, 4 trash cans of crushed apple and sugar maple leaves saturated with fish and molasses... and my sulpur for which I have read alot about and heck its pretty cheap for needing 8 lbs...... This I will hand turnover, yes 500 sf with a shovel, cant beat the depth and it will take some pounds off my butt and give me Arnold arms........lol....to help lift my state record pumpkin........this will be great experiment to see what happens by the spring test..... Oh yeah......theres another secret too.............but will save that for later :-) and in addition I'll put the folks to the south and north.....on
notice.........your TV time gents has expired.........sorry JK Im having squirrel for thanksgiving.......
Happy Turkey Day All.........
Grow EM BIGGER

11/21/2006 6:53:05 PM

President - GPC

StarBucks Coffee grounds
Primary Nutrients

Nitrogen 1.45%
Phosphorus ND ug/g
Potassium 1204 ug/g

Secondary Nutrients
Calcium 389 ug/g
Magnesium 448 ug/g
Sulfur high ug/g

Notes:
ND = indicates sample is below detection limit
ug/g = microgram / gram

11/21/2006 7:01:26 PM

President - GPC

http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/compost.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1

11/21/2006 7:02:21 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I had been going to Starbucks to get my daily hit of about 20 pounds, until today. I had convinced the assistant manager and the regulars to save it for me... they were willing to help. Then I just found out that the assistant manager quit, (unrelated to this particular situation) and when the manager found out that they were saving used grounds for me, he or she had a fit... "we can't have that, people taking our gounds!". Ok, I may be dramatizing it a bit. The regular workers are going to work on the manager. I can't believe management doesn't even know their own corporate policy....

The battle continues...

11/21/2006 9:09:19 PM

Central Ca

We'll, managers (management) certainly are good examples of rising to their level of incompetency.

11/21/2006 9:52:12 PM

Central Ca

Hey Wiz, thank you for all of your support and seeds. You are fantastic!

11/21/2006 9:53:42 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Cliff,

It's called the "Grounds for Your Garden Program".

http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/compost.asp

Dumb manager....print this page...if he still doesn't see the light contact:

Starbucks Customer Relations
PO Box 3717
Seattle, WA 98124-3717
(800) 235-2883

11/21/2006 11:00:25 PM

President - GPC

CliffWarren, I have the same problem, some managers save it according to their policies, others trash it, For the past year I have been visiting my closest SB, with the managment change.... now its too much trouble to put it into the trash can 2 feet farther away than the rubbish can........go figure. Then I bring in a copy of their website and mine and ask them to please save it for me.....it works until the next managment change......Oh well.....

11/22/2006 10:48:35 AM

President - GPC

I finished ammending the penthouse patch just hours ago, I put into 500 sq ft, 4 bails (3 CU ft. ea. ) of non Ph adjusted canadian peat moss, two trash cans full of pine needles from my big pine, 4- 5 gallon buckets of shreaded pine cones from the squirrel, 4 55 gallon barrels of chopped up and crushed maple and apple leaves, and another 75 lbs of coffee grounds. I added 5 lbs of sulphur, and 8 lbs of gypsum, on top of this I sprayed two gallons of spray which consisted of 6 oZ each of fish ferts (5-1-1) and black strap molasses, tilled into 6-8" of soil, Then every 24" I hit it with my shovel which dug down about 12" and turned over ..... I didnt break up because each one was teaming with over a dozen worms........then topped of with a little hose end water........ This ought to be pretty good for the wintering over then Ill do another test come spring.............I did a lot of great reading too from the local extension learning a great deal about soil consistency, types, fertilzers, Ph, Colorado soil tendacies, ammendment makeups around 100 college study pages.........I am svelt with knowledge......... Cant wait till the spring test.........The soil is quite black when I turned it over with the shovel,,,,,still containining some old pumpkin roots ........then covered it slightly with one more sprinkled bag of leaves and finely shreaded pine needles........My Ph should come down pretty good with this......and busting up that clay some more........

Now I must find the Christmas lights and start putting them on the house so momma doesnt get mad...........
Grow em BIG

11/24/2006 3:19:08 PM

Simi valley, ca

Because my calicum was at 2000 ppm i added 700 lbs for 1500 sq ft then next yr calicum was still at just below that at 1950 ppm , so i added another 600 lbs this yr i dont know where its at yet but checking all the other numbers it doesent seem to hurt only i still have yet to see calicum to go up ??? i may not get into adding that much this yr but if i had it i probly would !!!

11/25/2006 11:02:35 AM