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Lodi, California

Hi all. I have clay soil and was wondering what is the BEST cover crop to break up soil. I've ordered winter rye (I'm going to have to plant it late since it hasn't come yet) which I think breaks up soil. If there is another cover crop that is better at breaking up clay soil? Please let me know. Thanks!

12/27/2012 3:37:35 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

It takes years and years to learn soil and soil balance and the biology of soil science...try and read and learn as much as you can...

What might help you, is to use the "site search" function on a more regular basis and search for things you want to learn about...rather than just posting and posting and hoping that someone is going to give you the magic answer...

You've heard it before, and you are going to hear it again, "get a local grower to mentor you" that way you will learn from a local pro (and there are many many great California growers (including some relatively new growers) and you will learn alot more, alot quicker than trying to get answers by open posting questions like you currently are.

12/27/2012 4:09:12 PM

South East

google

12/27/2012 5:38:45 PM

Torrance, Ca.

I planted tillage radish at my new patch Ashton,,,,,,, has really hard soil..............

I'll let you know how it works out in a few months. Some of the radish already have 6 to 8 inch roots!

12/27/2012 5:50:50 PM

Lodi, California

Thanks all

12/27/2012 6:24:04 PM

formerly RGG

Ashton, I would recommend you work a load of sand into your soil. It would have a long term positive effect on the clay.

12/27/2012 7:43:25 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

What about the Soil Logic Liquid Gypsum I mentioned earlier? It is a soil conditioner made for helping break up and soften clay for drainage and allows for roots to grow deeper.

12/27/2012 8:45:21 PM

Lodi, California

how much sand? also i already have the liquid gypsum. thanks!

12/28/2012 2:00:25 AM

formerly RGG

If it was me, I would amend the clay with about 3" of sand over the entire surface of my garden. Of course after you get some sand it will need to be thoroughly mixed into your clay soil. Do you have a tiller ? If not, a spading fork will work well.

12/28/2012 7:51:02 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=20&p=463722

12/28/2012 9:07:36 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Good post Linus...and as you said earlier..."bang head here"

12/28/2012 12:17:57 PM

Lodi, California

No tiller at the moment. Though I do have a spading fork. Thanks all for the info. Also I know 3' of sand on my patch would be 3 yards of sand. Right now I'm getting sand by weight. Does anyone know how much sand weighs per yard? Also can I use multi purpose sand? It is the cheapest stuff there at $3 for a 60 lb bag. Thanks!

12/28/2012 1:16:05 PM

Lodi, California

Oh, also, if I can't get 3' right away can I start by working 500 lb loads ( about 8-9 60 lb bags) of all purpose sand into the soil over time? Thanks!

12/28/2012 1:20:06 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Add organic matter not sand...you want to improve the soil

12/28/2012 1:38:42 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

Not sure what prices of bulk sand are therr or if you got someone to haul it.but i went to a bricklaying buisness & got 3 1/2 yards for $35. Couple years ago.haveing it brought to you in dumptruck is pricy cause your paying for use of the truck.

12/28/2012 1:42:00 PM

The North Coast

Some point real soon you will need to get the soil tested, then make the recommended additions. Let those changes rest until you get the soil tested again in the spring. I have seen really nice looking soil be way out of whack and I have also seen some really ugly soil that you could dribble a basketball on support some big pumpkins. If there is a moral it is that at some point your going to have to dance with who brought ya...but you'll be best to have her tested.

12/28/2012 1:57:22 PM

Piqua, Ohio

if you add sand to clay without compost you'll end up with a patch as hard as concrete, I learned the hard way a few years ago. Organic matter is the way to go.

12/28/2012 2:34:12 PM

Lodi, California

thanks, i've already tested my soil and i dont need to add much besides gypsum and 0-0-50 fertilizer wise. also when i was searching adding sand i saw that most people thought adding both sand and organic matter was best. Thanks all for the help!

12/28/2012 2:45:08 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

sand + clay = bricks.

12/28/2012 5:26:52 PM

Lodi, California

ok, i added some sand to my patch. only put it in one corner so if i did make a brick it would be a small brick, not a 20 ton brick. results: none does sand work instantly? i wouldnt think so. should i add more? or not? if not it can be put to use being squashed under a pumpkin:). thanks!

12/28/2012 7:29:04 PM

Lodi, California

sorry, i ment i think it would work instantly

12/28/2012 7:30:06 PM

Lodi, California

and also, should i wate for soil to dry? soil isnt too wet. its going to rain tomorrow but for a bit of a while after that it is going to be sunny. thanks again!

12/28/2012 7:32:12 PM

San Antonio, tx

If it sticks to your shovel/pick, it's too wet

12/28/2012 9:54:23 PM

formerly RGG

Sand plus clay plus organic matter = loam. Cement plus sand = concrete.

12/28/2012 10:51:51 PM

formerly RGG

The more sand and organic matter you add the better your soil will drain and it will be much easier for you to work in during rainy periods.

12/28/2012 10:53:41 PM

formerly RGG

You probably already know the gypsum will also help to break up your heavy clay soil.

12/28/2012 10:55:48 PM

Muddy Waters

Bang head here!!lol, is dead right.Ashton it's real hard to get growing tips on these forums.There are so many variables to everything we do its not funny,I have added sand to my patch several times in 20 years and have not had any problems.Last year I put a pick up load at each plant for the stump area & down the maine vine run.It was 24$ a load.There are lots of different types of sand.I dont know how sand would make it harder?but I guess in the right soil conditions it could.If I were you I would find a good mentor or two.Then ask them advice & take what makes sense and leave the rest behind.That's what I did last year and I did pretty good.Good Luck in 2013!

12/28/2012 10:57:53 PM

formerly RGG

Sand has no nutrients in it. What it will do for you is to provide better drainage and air to your soil on a long term basis as it will modify the hard clay properties.

12/28/2012 10:59:51 PM

formerly RGG

It is true adding sand may cause you to have to add additional organic matter. All the additions will start to build depth to your soil and I would consider that a good thing.

12/28/2012 11:04:32 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Mark,,,,,,,,,,,, you might be the guy for Ash!


Take him under your wing......................

12/28/2012 11:11:13 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

You have the watermelon guys posting now... EVADE MISSION!

12/28/2012 11:13:15 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

lol Luke...thanks for the laugh.

Seriously, Mark if you want to (and Ashton will accept) take him on and mentor him for the upcoming season...we all need a mentor and you've done really well...so pass on that knowledge to someone who is asking...and asking...

When the newbies start offering advice and posting regurgitated answers to posted questions, I usually adjust my settings and use the ignore feature...its that time.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=20&p=464600

12/29/2012 12:18:50 AM

Torrance, Ca.

See Mark,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I'm not the only one.



You ready.................. ;)

12/29/2012 12:35:24 AM

Lodi, California

thanks all!

12/29/2012 2:24:25 AM

Lodi, California

so heres my agenda, sand, om, till.

12/29/2012 2:25:16 AM

Lodi, California

oh, also put in gypsum and late cover crop

12/29/2012 2:26:47 AM

Lodi, California

till the heck out of it:)

12/29/2012 2:27:11 AM

Muddy Waters

I'm not looking to mentor Ashton,Just saying he should pick a good grower & e-mail him with your technical questions,like how much do I water there is no one answer for these questions.Everybody will give there opinion.Then we can try & make each other look stupid so that we can feel smart & feel about good ourselves.We all have our opinions which seem to tick off the guy who sees it differently.Simple human behavior.lol Now I have opened a can of Psychology on you guys.lol.I like it Luke! Evade mission! TD & Mark = Brick wall!LOL!Or we can do it Ashton way LOL "What we have here is a failure to communicate"Seems some of these growers are hard to reach!LOL!Have a Great 2013 It's AWL GOOOODDDD!!!!!!!

12/29/2012 6:23:50 AM

Muddy Waters

I'm not looking to mentor Ashton,Just saying he should pick a good grower & e-mail him with your technical questions,like how much do I water there is no one answer for these questions.Everybody will give there opinion.Then we can try & make each other look stupid so that we can feel smart & feel about good ourselves.We all have our opinions which seem to tick off the guy who sees it differently.Simple human behavior.lol Now I have opened a can of Psychology on you guys.lol.I like it Luke! Evade mission! TD & Mark = Brick wall!LOL!Or we can do it Ashton way LOL "What we have here is a failure to communicate"Seems some of these growers are hard to reach!LOL!Have a Great 2013 It's AWL GOOOODDDD!!!!!!!

12/29/2012 6:36:56 AM

formerly RGG

LOL Mark. I think we have been getting along great lately. Luke - Mark and I both did better with our pumpkins this year than we did with our watermelons. I don't think we consider ourselves " watermelon guys". Anyway, have it your way and have a nice day brother.

12/29/2012 9:39:49 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

You'll see the watermelon guys are just as or more passionate about growing as AG folks. That was part of my joke... cheers and don't forget the gypsum!

12/29/2012 9:48:37 AM

Connellsville, Pa

While we are on the CLAY subject. How far down can clay be a bother to growing pumpkins ? Mine is down at almost 3 and half ft deep. It doesnt seem to bother anything that I can see but I often wonder.

12/29/2012 11:25:59 AM

Omaha, Ne.

Are you sure you need sand? did you do a jar test? I did that and was surprised just how much my sand I already had. That's why my soil was hard as a rock. I was told to add sand by well meaning growers too.:)

12/29/2012 12:29:42 PM

Lodi, California

i have absulutly no sand in my soil

12/29/2012 12:30:34 PM

Lodi, California

i picked up a handful yesterday and it was so hard you could play baseball with it.

12/29/2012 12:33:04 PM

Lodi, California

though it had absulutly no sand

12/29/2012 12:34:58 PM

Omaha, Ne.

You can't see sand in your hand. use a jar. 1/4 cup 4 drops dish soap. shake and get your frustrations out for a minute. Let it set for 24 hours sand will settle to the bottom then silt then clay om will float. hope this helps.

12/29/2012 2:05:52 PM

Belgium

sand wont help you get a better soil. you need to add lots of organic matter. changing your original soil won't help and especially not with turning it in a sandy soil. If your clay soil has a bad structure it means you need to add lots of calcium.
I don't think you already know this but in a soil you have the "clay-humus complex", this complex can bind with ca²+ but also with Na+ , and when you don't have enough calcium in you soil it will make bonds with Na+ and you soil will automatically have a bad structure. so you need to make sure this is in balance and off course this all won't work if you don't add any organic matter. the organic matter will provide your soil with humus so you get a decent clay-humus complex. without all this you soil will be useless. the clay-humus complex is also important to keep elements like K,Ca,Mg,.... in you soil, these elements can make a bond with the clay-humus complex. all these elements have a positive charge and can be hold by the complex. This is also the reason why N and P leach out so fast, they are in the soil under the form of NO3- and H2PO4- and since the complex has a negative charge it can't make any bonds with them so they leach out. the only form of N that can be kept more or less in soil is NH4+.

12/29/2012 2:10:49 PM

Lodi, California

ok, thanks. so no sand, add om?

12/29/2012 2:18:40 PM

San Antonio, tx

OK time out time out time out! OK Ash breathe. First of all do you have drainage problems that needs to be amended with sand. For example, dig a hole 12in x12in and fill that sucker with water one time. If it drains within an hour then your drainage is fine. If it drain within 6 hours them you do need some drainage. If after a day it doesn't drain then you got major problems. Though since you've grown a kin already there I don't think the latter is a problem. If your drainage is fine then OM is what should be working on.

Metaphorically speaking, I understand that you basically can only fire one bullet(plant) on one 350 sq ft piece of land and try to hit the bullseye(your goal), so you're trying to do your best with that one bullet. But you even said in another thread that April is coming fast. Pull the trigger on your patch. Do your best.

12/29/2012 2:40:21 PM

Belgium

if you soil is really really really bad you can use it but if want to keep your soil in good shape OM would be better a choice. and turning heavy clay to better soil won't happen in one year but it's a start. I guess you will learn the complex since of it in a few years

12/29/2012 2:41:25 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Do you know what soil type you have? You could look it up on websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov They will have tables and charts explaining your soil, as long as it has not been totally messed up by bulldozers, etc. You could try going to the nearest NRCS office for soil information: they are the experts on soil and their advice is free. In Iowa we have an extension service through Iowa State University, maybe California has something similar.

12/29/2012 2:42:15 PM

Piqua, Ohio

add both, just not large amounts

12/29/2012 2:43:03 PM

Belgium

complex sience *

12/29/2012 2:45:10 PM

Belgium

please do tell me if anyone did understand what I posted before lol

12/29/2012 2:50:52 PM

Omaha, Ne.

wheeeeeee..wha.wha..wheeeeeeeee:)

12/29/2012 3:23:54 PM

Belgium

will tell another fact: the reason why your soil is more acid at the very end of your season than at the beginning or during the season is because soil live produces carbonic acid ( carbondioxide or CO2) and that's why your pH drops at the end of the season. During winter all soil lives stops, so the flow of CO2 stops for a while, you till soil so CO2 escapes and during winter water will infiltrate in soil and pushes the co2 out and sucks in fresh air or more water when very wet. adding calcium in the form of lime will give you a better soil structure and it corrects your pH when it dropped too much

12/29/2012 3:24:50 PM

Belgium

on the other hand the clay-humus complex is the reason why your plants grow. The roots give a H+ ion to the clay-humus complex in return for another ion like Ca, Mg, etc .
This H+ ion will on the other hand turn your soil more acid again so you need a buffer to compensate all this and that's why there needs to be lime in soil to compensate all this. when you have not enough lime to act like a buffer in soil your pH will drop again. so you see at the very end humus that comes from OM is the most important thing to keep everything running

12/29/2012 3:29:56 PM

Lodi, California

Thanks all again. I have clay soil like it says on the name of the post

12/29/2012 4:10:10 PM

Omaha, Ne.

100% clay wow can it be possible.

http://www.baliadvertiser.biz/articles/garden_doctor/2012/soil_matrix.html

12/29/2012 4:39:16 PM

Piqua, Ohio

Good read Darren, My soil was high clay soil when I started adding OM and sand, finally after 10 years my test results say sandy loam soil, cover crop of radishes, rye, and austrian peas are all I use for OM also a little chicken manure, but this is what works for me!

12/29/2012 4:54:17 PM

formerly RGG

Thank you Josh for confirming that added sand is not a bad thing. Nearly all the giant prize winning watermelons have been grown in sandy soil. I am aware that even more organic matter will have to be added to achieve the desired % of organic matter, since the total volume of soil will have increased. Ashton, organic matter will have to be added on a yearly basis, but sand will last you indefinitely. It will help with drainage and the tilth of your soil.

12/29/2012 6:17:25 PM

formerly RGG

Darren, Ashton never said it his soil is 100% clay. He said it has no sand in it.

12/29/2012 6:20:57 PM

formerly RGG

Ashton, you could probably purchase sand cheaper if you purchase it in bulk from a company that deals in it by the ton. You can usually pay for delivery if you don't know someone with a truck who is willing to haul it for you.

12/29/2012 6:24:22 PM

Lodi, California

Ok, thanks all. My friend is grinding tree stumps and I have the grindings, I guess you would call them that. Can I add these to the soil?

12/29/2012 6:44:59 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

omg...

12/29/2012 7:27:20 PM

Omaha, Ne.

Thanks for clearing that up, dreamer what would I do without you.

12/29/2012 7:28:22 PM

Omaha, Ne.

We can all just stop posting. dreamer has this handled.

12/29/2012 7:30:32 PM

Lodi, California

That's fine, I'm making up half the posts though, lol

12/29/2012 7:33:11 PM

San Antonio, tx

No grindings they will tie up your nitrogen

12/29/2012 8:30:25 PM

formerly RGG

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings Darren. I know some of us on here are very thin skinned.

12/30/2012 10:30:03 AM

formerly RGG

Ashton, Buffalo Joe is right, your "trimmings" need composting before adding them to your soil.

12/30/2012 10:31:31 AM

Muddy Waters

Let them grindings break down for ten years.You will be in College by then.If you hang out here for that long you will most likely be attending Clown college.lol!

12/30/2012 11:29:56 AM

Omaha, Ne.

Burn. good one dreamer. Guess I'm just not on your level.

12/30/2012 11:58:06 AM

formerly RGG

Mark is certainly correct. Find something you are passionate about that will earn you a good living and develop your skills. It certainly doesn't hurt to participate in a hobby you are passionate about. Just don't get too caught up in it like a few of us have. A young man needs to learn to earn his way in the world.

12/30/2012 11:58:08 AM

Omaha, Ne.

I'm not saying not to add sand. Just know how much your have before you add.

12/30/2012 12:21:17 PM

Torrance, Ca.

I'm going to grow 2 plants in pure sand this year. Had 50 yards dumped right on the patch!


Its going to be a mixture of 60% sand, 20% Vermiculite and 20% Perlite.

No compost what so ever!

Watch my diary for details..............

12/30/2012 12:34:59 PM

Lodi, California

dont you only have enough room for 2 plants so cal?

12/30/2012 1:06:17 PM

Lodi, California

i think that is way to much sand, but you've been here longer than me. i wish you luck. also, didnt you say your soil was already pretty fluffy?

12/30/2012 1:08:20 PM

Torrance, Ca.

That's only at my new patch. I'm going to feed it through fert injectors 3' below the sand, vermiculite and perlite.


No compost, soooooooooooo its going to need lots of feedings!


Wish me luck! ;)

12/30/2012 1:15:57 PM

formerly RGG

good call Darren

12/30/2012 1:20:57 PM

formerly RGG

Ashton, SoCal willing be growing what is sometimes referred to as a passive hydroponic system. That will allow him close control of the nutrients in his soil. I fear his soil biology may be poor.

12/30/2012 1:23:29 PM

Baker City Oregon

Where is Amelio when we so desparately need him?

12/30/2012 1:59:37 PM

Belgium

your biology of soil doesn't seem to be that good either TD . Everyone can say to do this do that, but they all seem to have lost it when they need to explain why and how it works. all a bunch of parrots together. some people always seem to like questioning everyone else comment.
and what about you Ashton? you should stop being a smart ass. you have just started growing and you are already giving advice to other people that have been growing ten times longer than you.

12/30/2012 2:00:52 PM

Belgium

your biology of soil doesn't seem to be that good either TD . Everyone can say to do this do that, but they all seem to have lost it when they need to explain why and how it works. all a bunch of parrots together. some people always seem to like questioning everyone else comment.
and what about you Ashton? you should stop being a smart ass. you have just started growing and you are already giving advice to other people that have been growing ten times longer than you.

12/30/2012 2:00:53 PM

Belgium

Amelio was maybe a pain in the ass but atleast he kenw what he was saying, most were just to stupid to understand it

12/30/2012 2:03:40 PM

Belgium

.........I will probably get shot for saying all this but at least I said the truth

12/30/2012 2:05:45 PM

Omaha, Ne.

Lol Good one Chris

12/30/2012 2:10:47 PM

Baker City Oregon

You are right ETM. He was above my head for sure. So much so that it really didn't help myself or others,but, I could tell that he probably did know something. I don't think anyone will shoot you. I guess I posted above because I was either getting bored with this thread or I just couldn't stand it anymore. And yes, I really found myself wondering what Amelios take would be on it.

12/30/2012 2:15:25 PM

Omaha, Ne.

To bad Amelio mouth came with his brain. E

12/30/2012 2:16:22 PM

formerly RGG

LOL Whitey. I just state my opinion like others to. Is that a problem to you ? I don't claim to be a top grower. I have a lot to learn. I apologize if I annoy you. Feel free to ignore what I write.

12/30/2012 2:25:10 PM

Baker City Oregon

No ignore neccessary. Not coming down on you at all. Why are you so defensive? We all are entitled to our opinion. That is what is so good about these forums. I have gleaned a lot from others opinions. Sorry I offended you. Didn't mean to. Wasn't thinking of you at all.

12/30/2012 2:34:47 PM

formerly RGG

ETM, I never claimed to have great soil biology or great anything. I do claim I have a right to express my opinion. I like what the Finders have been doing. They got a good microscope to learn about their soil microbiology. I hope to be able to afford one soon. There is certainly a lot to learn. I think Ashton should feel free to pass on his opinion just like anyone else.

12/30/2012 2:37:32 PM

formerly RGG

SoCal,I didn't mean the comment about poor soil biology as a dig. You can grow amazing things through hydroponics, active or passive. But I do think there is not a lot of biological activity involved with this method of growing since there is very little organic matter involved. You may be able to grow a world record that way for all I know. And I do wish you the best of luck. I think it will be interesting to see how well you do.

12/30/2012 2:43:44 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Not at all Tennessee, I'm excited about this year and can't wait to see how it turns out!


Your the best Darren :)

12/30/2012 4:10:20 PM

Lodi, California

didnt mean to be a smart ass. just my hollow headed oppinion.

12/30/2012 6:04:02 PM

Muddy Waters

So cal I have thought the same thing.my cousin says we should grow them in water.He claims they have instruments that can tell you exactly what to give the plant & not one micro more or less.You can get the maximum out of anything.The old hippies are doing it now!

12/30/2012 7:57:39 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

96 posts...cmon fellas...stop the madness...

12/30/2012 8:28:07 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

Buddy& i got put in charge of 100 hydromaters plants in 11th grade.we set the hole thing up he did ph chemical stuff& i did all the set up&pruning& all the bs.but learned that hydro grows fast cause a plant needs a balance&to sift threw all the different stuff in soil it stresses the plant.but in hydro it gives excactly what it needs so its not waisting time& energy sifting threw wat it needs to grow.but yet there is certain organism that cant be made chemicaly that are in compost.only affect i can honestly have experience was taste of mater just blaa almost deludeted.was said the raw stuff gives flavor(sorta like a country eggyellow yolk factory raised darker yolk ate in dirt red yolk scrathin in clay)but had green 1 lb+ in 90 days from seed. Thats my few shotglasses hydro ejimacation

12/30/2012 8:39:29 PM

The North Coast

Message boards are for help and discussion...madness is being called out for doing so.

12/31/2012 7:02:37 AM

Tennessee Valley

Amen brother Nate

12/31/2012 7:59:18 AM

Hinckley MN

so... after 100 posts... what was the best cover crop to break up clay?

12/31/2012 9:16:04 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

The answer was given 7 posts earlier...

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=20&p=463722

Hey Bat Cave...ah never mind...

12/31/2012 9:38:42 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Happy New Year Everyone...!!

12/31/2012 9:39:43 AM

The North Coast

I would like to apologize to North Shore Boyz. I took offense to what was said and it caused me to act out of character. Nothing like this is worth getting our feathers ruffled up. Best of luck to you and Happy New Year.

12/31/2012 5:33:01 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

...its all good...

1/2/2013 7:49:57 PM

Muddy Waters

Amen brothers!

1/2/2013 8:16:31 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

pg3 I think you are going to have a good year. Grow'em big.

1/3/2013 10:20:31 AM