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Knopp, Germany

This is being copied from another post as I think it deserves it's own forum. Please provide your input as I think it is a very interesting topic.

"Wie kommen wir da weiter, um eine europäische Linie zu entwickeln?"

A very good question Christian. I believe that the best cross for a particular geograpic area will come from within a growers patch, not from within our continent. A good example will be one of Martin's seeds. He is already preparing crosses that meet his needs. Orange color, and big. I think that these crosses will assume a geographic idea, or trait of his patch and weather conditions (try to translate that...LOL) and do very well for him next year. The longer he grows his own crosses, with the traits that he desires, they will become more and more geographically or weather sensitive the type of seeds that other growers with the same type of climate that Martin has will have luck with.

The 950 Boyton is an excellent example, it does very well for growers in hot climates, as it was produced in Australia with temperatures well above 35 c constantly.

My idea is just a un-scientific theory, but I am not the only one that has similar ideas about geography and how well, or bad seeds produce.

A very good question, I hope that more respond. I will start another thread on this subject as I believe it warrents more input.

owen

8/18/2005 12:40:57 PM

Sweden

I think there is a problem in your theory Owen, The 950 Boyton may have good genes to produse pumpkins in hot climate but it´s not because it was grown in a hot area. The genes of the pumpkin is a mix of the parents and the temperatur where it grows is not a parameter. If the 950 Boyton was grown in sweden for example ( is may have been 450 Boyton) the genes of the ofspring have still be the same.

/Lars

8/18/2005 2:58:06 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Owen,

es ist gut, diesen thread zu eröffnen. Danke dafür.

Die meisten wissenschaftlichen Erkenntnisse beruhen auf der genauen Beobachtung der Natur und der statistischen Auswertung der Ergebnisse dieser Beobachtung.

Hätten wir genug Erkenntnisse aus einer umfassenden Beobachtung, könnten wir schon jetzt die Arbeit abschließen. Wie ich in Deinem anderen thread schrieb, glaubbe ich daran, das viele Informationen noch fehlen.

Ich glaube, dass es gut wäre zu ergründen, welche Informationen in der Statistik wichtig sind und benötigt werden, und welche anderen man nicht braucht.

Ob sich Deine Theorie bestätigen lässt, mögen wir dann sehen.
Christian

8/18/2005 3:47:58 PM

Southern Sweden

Yes Lars, your answer is correct to 100%, it’s nothing to discuss.

8/18/2005 4:04:46 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Börje, at all respect for your knowledge and the performances shown, I contradict. I still think that something gives it to discuss for crossroads with regard to the choice of the partners.
The adaptation of certain kinds or races to the climate is absolutely caused genetically. About this there might not be any doubts. It may be possible, between the climatic zones it is not of importance that for C.Maxima a great one distinguished because the successful planters also know for your location how they create conditions for a good growth. Gives enough technical possibilities to make the stress for the plant pleasantly.
A single Grower cannot derive the right theory for good crossroads in my opinion. This would be too simple.
Christian

8/18/2005 4:21:46 PM

Cologne / Germany

This discussion might not lead to anything as long as we don´t plant our own seeds for our own lines.
Every year you can see us European growers using new seeds from the US for example, just to try something else with more potential. The only grower using EU-seeds or his own to my knowledge is Jos from Belgium.
It´s okay to do it for a few seasons until we have a base for other lines, but eg. Martin did so many excellent crosses, it would be about the time next year to actually use them.
It will take some time for sure to see if there´s any truth in climatic background behind certain seeds and what they produce, but it can only be done by actually using some of the European top result seeds.

8/18/2005 5:11:11 PM

Itzetown City

The Question is IMO not "What can we do to breed a european line?" my question is "Where is the matter to develop an european line?"
I dont believe that in the short time one can bread a clima specific line. If it were possible, some growers in the south would doing that long before. Making a plant clima resistent is a part of evolution, changing the genes (beside mutants), it needs x-years.
And our clima here in Europe is not so far away from the clima in PA, OH, IN, IL and count some other states along thus latitudes, that we cold not grow the seeds from there with the same result as the growers there.
All what we have to do is to study the AGGC and observe what the Havy Hitters breed. Also have an ear for that what Welty and Ailts have to say. And work both in in what we breed.
All other doing would mean to explore the wheel again.
No Misunderstanding please,it's not my intention to critisize one like Martin who'll breed his own seed, on the contrary, I like his orange ones as I like my 621 Welty.

8/18/2005 5:20:35 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

it may be that there should not be any European patriotism. Also with the other Grower in all the world one can communicate. The question whether I always am and shall not contribute myself to the improvement on the lookout after a better seed arose me.

8/18/2005 5:57:26 PM

Itzetown City

Owen, what do the 950,4 Boyton 2003 produce, beside 1032 Perez and crap? Not to blame Ben, but as I read tween the lines, most offspring rotted and splitted away.

8/18/2005 6:41:05 PM

Cologne / Germany

Werner, 2005 IS the year of the splits. There are so many splitting plants and pumpkins all around the world I don´t think it has much to do with a certain seed. It´s weather related. Almost everyone had a late start this year, it was too cold and wet for a long time - split weather for those who were able to set pumpkins.
So far environment and conditions count before genetics.

8/18/2005 7:31:13 PM

Knopp, Germany

Great thread, even if I don't know what I am talking about...LOL

8/19/2005 1:37:19 AM

Austria

As a newbie I can`t provide an extraordinary wise statement here but I would like to just give one thing to consider:

There are surely WAY more growers in the US, they have all those organisations, conferences, fertilizers we don`t have etc.

Still we have people here in Europe that constantly grow +600 almost every year. Not far back that was close to world record. We have a good handful of growers wo already did or are about to grow +1000.

Main thing to realize, this is sort of a national sport in the US with WAY more people who practise this. The more growers the more results +1000, +1100. +1200 etc. Still we don`t have to duck away here in Europe and start getting obsessed to "get as good as they are". Actually I believe we are. There have already been statements from the other side of the pond this year, that "that grower from Sweden could give the world record a go".

The right seed sure matters a lot. I`m just experiencing this in my patch. A cross may look very promising on paper. Then you grow it and then don`t be surprised if it gives you nothing but pain. There is a good reason to trust in proven seeds on the one hand, on the other hand I personnally can`t wait planting my own seed next year. I think it won`t harm a lot to give our own seeds a try. Still the question is, do our seeds pack the climatical background into their genetics and therefor develop certain qualities which will allow to perform better and better. Where are the scientists? I can remember Michel say that however, a certain species of plant will in the long term always try to improve.

8/19/2005 2:53:44 AM

Itzetown City

Owen, it must be cold the weather giving rise to this winterspecific discussion at summertime. ROTFLMAO

8/19/2005 5:33:16 AM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Martin, Börje says the Split did not lie at the weather, it was the seed because the form and quality of the fruit comes from the seed

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=23&p=129036

8/19/2005 8:46:08 AM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Martin, Börje sagt, der Split lag nicht am Wetter, es war der Samen, denn die Form und Eigenschaft der Frucht kommt vom Samen

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=23&p=129036

8/19/2005 8:46:57 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Christian,

I am pretty sure that I never blamed the weather for Börje's split. Some time before the split happened I talked to a few growers in the chat (I know Jos was in there, too) and said that I expect his fruit to split vertically right at the blossom end because it can't stand the pressure which built up due to the massive amount of weight over it.
A week or two later it split right at this point.
The genetics of the 1420 caused the fruit to be wheel shaped and thus certainly were the biggest factor for the split. However, I doubt that dill rings (another factor that contributed to the split) are only a genetic thing. In my opinion inconstant weather causes dill rings more than the genetics. So, that being said, the weather might also have contributed to the split.

8/19/2005 9:35:45 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Ingo,

"Martin did so many excellent crosses, it would be about the time next year to actually use them." I.L.

--> Yes, I did many nice crosses in the past but none of them was perfect enough to be worth trying them over a proven seeds so far.
e.g. my 1026 Holland X 940 Mombert cross (481 Reiss 01) from 2001: The 1026 Holland fruit and plant were prefect but I crossed in the 940 Mombert which had a flat vine. The 940 would have brought in lots of orange but I don't like flat vines in a cross.
e.g. my 712 Kuhn X self crosses (658 and 518 Reiss 02) from 2002: The plant was perfect but the fruits were white colored and wheel shaped. I don't like white fruits and I hate wheels.
e.g. my 845 Bobier X 712 Kuhn cross (534 Reiss 03) from 2003: The plant was perfect (it was killed by spider mites in late summer and thus the fruit didn't get as big as possible) but the fruit was again wheel shaped and turned green late in the season. I hate wheels and green ones.
e.g. my 801.5 Stelts X 1016 Daletas cross (472 Reiss 04) from 2004: This 801.5 fruit had a huge dill ring (probably due to the weather as the other 801.5 fruit has nothing) but more importantly the 1016 pollinator plant had wheel shaped fruit that liked to split on the blossom end. I don't like wheels and splits.

There are only three seeds that I ever considered planting: my 801.5 Stelts X self (495 Reiss 04) from 2004 and my 845 Bobier X 801.5 (312 Reiss 04) and 582 Hester X 801.5 (333 Reiss 04) crosses form 2004. The plants and fruits of the 801.5, 845, and 582 were perfect with no defects.
I actually planted the 495 this year but only for crosses, a selfed seeds is probably not as good for weight as a cross.
And I didn't plant the 333 or 312 for the fear that the 845 and the 582 in these crosses could destroy the orange color.

8/19/2005 9:39:26 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

However, you can bet that I will try one of my own seeds in competition next year. It will be a seed from my 670 Daigle X 801.5 Stelts cross from this year.
Both the 670 and 801.5 plants are the strongest, most vigorous and healthiest plants I have ever had, without any signs of mutations like flat- or double vines, etc.! Also, the fruits of the 670 and 801.5 are just about perfect. No dill rings, no deformed blossoms, long stems, no stem stress, no splits (so far... knocking on wood!), perfect shape and color, etc.
There has only been one single problem I had with both fruits. Both had some rot on the stem caused by all the rain. But I treated these areas with fungicide and the drier weather that we are having now dried them out again. And, of course, this had nothing to do with the genetics.

8/19/2005 9:39:42 AM

Austria

First on to request Martin`s 05 seeds. Thanks in advance ;-))

8/19/2005 9:56:51 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Request is noted down, Heino. You were only beaten by Mike Frantz who already requested a week or so ago...LOL

8/19/2005 10:40:13 AM

Esneux / Liège / BELGIUM

And what about the others-who-have-made-previous-previous- requests and who were previous-previous-promised-2005-seeds
:-).
I think Martin is becomming a very popular man on this board (and on this site too).

Martin, what do you say to the gilrs you meet? "C"mon Babe. Come and see my big orange seeds".
Hummm..It's still raining here.

8/19/2005 11:08:03 AM

Long Island,New York

Well...I hate to bust your bubbles but I have at least 6 of Martin's seeds in my patch and I'm getting all squash ! Blue ones/grey ones and green ones....and all are less than 50 lbs at best !! .....lol....G

8/19/2005 2:57:49 PM

Itzetown City

Martin, from which of the two 940 Mombert you're talking? 98 or 00?

8/19/2005 3:12:02 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

oh sorry Martin, ich verwechselte Dich mit floh

floh schrieb weiter oben: .... So far environment and conditions count before genetics.

Diesem Satz sollte meine Antwort dienen. Leider ist es hier üblich, das Posting ohne Namen zu beenden. Ich muss euch noch am Niknamen kennen lernen
Christian

8/19/2005 3:22:29 PM

Itzetown City

Glenn wait til next month, then thei'll all change to blue-white, the colors of bavaria. SCNR

8/19/2005 3:36:58 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Martin, Du meintest:
"However, you can bet that I will try one of my own seeds in competition next year."
Ich drücke Dir die Daumen, dass die Samen der Kreuzung die guten Eigenschaften der Eltern übernehmen.

Für mich ist immer noch unklar, nach welchen Gesetzmäßigkeiten der Vererbungslehre bei der züchterischen Bearbeitung von C.maxima vorgegangen wird.
Christian

Christian

8/19/2005 3:51:16 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

G, man, I collect ornamental squash seeds from all over Europe, spend my last pennies for them, send them to you twice (darn customs!) and then you complain about getting squash and not nice orange and huge pumpkins! LOL

Hans-Werner, it was the 940 Mombert 98, so the cross is the reverse of the 582 Hester 01.

8/19/2005 5:19:34 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

Christian, if I am not mistaken, there are many theories about how AGs cross and how they pass along their genes but I think no one knows for sure. HTGWCGP III has a whole section (pp. 130 - 147) on genetics, crossing, etc. and there are also nice articles on this site.
But, as mentioned earlier, I think no one knows anything for sure.
So, what I like to do is to cross two plants that BOTH only have good characteristics that I would like to see in the progenies again.
Consequently I consider all characteristics of the plant that I know before pollination. Before pollination I know if the plant has any mutations (flat vines, double vines, double tendrils, deformed flowers, seeds in the blossom, etc.), if the plant has brittle or strong vines, if the plant is heat or cold resistant, etc. I will only cross plants that show nothing but good characteristics.
This is what I consider before pollination. However, I can only see after pollination if I like the color of the fruit, the shape of the fruit, the splitting risk of the fruit, the final stem length, the size of the fruit etc. Consequently this has a lot to do with luck at pollination time as you can only hope that these types of characteristics will be good.
And this is what I finally succeeded in doing this year. I think I made the perfect cross for big and orange. The two plants involved in the cross (the 670 and 801.5) only showed good characteristics before pollination and now also showed nothing but good characteristics after pollination (this is the luck part as you can't foresee it at pollination time... looks I was lucky this year). And that's why I am sure that I will try this cross in 2006.

Martin

8/19/2005 5:19:47 PM

Long Island,New York

Hee-heee. These non-atlantic giant varieties you sent me are the best things I have going ! I love the big green ones even if I can't pronounce the names...lol. The triamble are not very productive however. I will be making soup(chowder) this weekend with one variety. If it wasn't for these non-AG's and other fun stuff I'd probably have packed it in by now...thanks !....G

8/19/2005 7:32:31 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Martin, nichts genaues weiß man. Das ist eine konkrete Beschreibung der Situation. Trotzdem hat die Weiterentwicklung seit Dill's Anfang große Fortschritte gemacht. Man könnte meinen, es gibt keine Diskussionsbedarf.

Hinsichtlich der Frage, welche Eigenschaften wichtig sind, um über die Partner einer Kreuzung zu entscheiden, müssen wir uns nicht einig werden. Darauf kommt es nicht an.

Die Diskussion mus lauten, welche Informationen sind für den Züchter wichtig und wie bekommt er sie. Über ein zwei oder drei Generationen mag man über den vorherigen Planzer noch in Erfahrung bringen, woher die Samen stammen und unter welchen bedingungen sie gewachsen sind. Woie sieht es über eine zeitraum von 10 Jahren aus? Das zu recherchieren ist doch wohl bald nicht mehr möglich.

Meine Idee, wenn es sie nicht schon gibt:
Eine Datenbank erfasst alle Infornmationen. Der Zugang ist durchg wen auch immer zu kontrollieren. Es liegt dann bei jedem selbst, wie er aus dieser Datenbak nutzen zieht.

Gibt es diese Datenbank? Wenn Ja, wo? Wenn Nein, was nun?

Christian

8/20/2005 7:15:38 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

AGGC - membership based site: Includes all sorts of information on each pumpkin (weight, grower, year, seed, cross, measurements, est. weight, % over or under chart, how many fruits on the plant, how many sq ft., fruit shaded?, insect and disease levels, average temps of growing season, picture of fruit, etc.) its hierarchy tree, its progeny tree, seeds with the same cross, with the reverse cross, etc. Unbelievable amounts of info can be found there!

8/20/2005 8:23:25 AM

Itzetown City

In my beginning of growing AGs I'd the same questions. And I said to my own: READ READ READ

As I said above:
"All what we have to do is to study the AGGC and observe what the Havy Hitters breed. Also have an ear for that what Welty and Ailts have to say. And work both in in what we breed.
All other doing would mean to explore the wheel again."

And there are a lot of other websites related to growing AGs.
Use the google language tool and read.

8/20/2005 12:27:22 PM

Loitsche/Sachsen-Anhalt/Germany

Martin, Hans-Werner,

AGGC habe ich nun gefunden. Danke für den Hinweis. Scheint eine geschlossene Gesellschaft zu sein. So geschlossen, dass auf der Hompage keine Tür ohne Schlüssel ist. Auch keine Klingel, um zu läuten. Ich habe wenigestens einen mailto gefunden und hoffe, dass man mich eintreten lässt. ;-)

Das hätte diese Diskussion abkürzen können. Aber ich glaube, ganz überflüssig war sie nicht. Jedenfalls hat es mit etwas gebracht, da ich ja ganz am Anfang stehe.

Schönes Wochende und bestes Kürbiswetter,
Christian

8/20/2005 1:33:58 PM

Ohio

Mark my name down for a 05 seed Martin, the Diagle x Steltz cross,and I don t want a letter back with your 2001 seeds saying this is the best you could do for me because you run out of seeds,,,,, It wont work, I wont believe you,LMAO.

BROOKS

8/21/2005 5:18:37 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

LOL, Brooks! Noted down: "one 670 Daigle X 801.5 Stelts seed for Brooks"...lol maybe you will find a few more seeds in your bubble pack :-)

8/21/2005 5:27:28 PM

Austria

Brooks, you lucky guy. When I received Martins seeds, there surprisingly were no AG seeds at all among them, not even 01. ROFLMAO!!!
Martin, no offence, just so funny I couln`t resist - LOL, LOL! Your giantsunflowers are doing GRRREEEEAAAATT!

8/22/2005 4:31:21 AM

No Place Special

670 x 801.... KILLER CROSS! With my germination failures this yr Martin you better give me more than just one of those seeds!!!! ROFLOL! I thought I was doing a decent job of bringing orange back into my patch but YOU my friend are producing a top notch soon to be legend orange cross. If they go to chart or a tad heavy your seed will be the cats meeeoooowoowowwowwww when it comes to orange in the future. Really im on the top of the list?!?!?!?!? WOOOOOO HOOOOOO! That means I get the most seeds right?!!?!!!!!!!! ROFLOL!

8/23/2005 10:32:23 AM

Utah

HEY ... I requested Martins seeds last winter?! didn't I ?
:)
gordon

8/23/2005 11:16:58 AM

Itzetown City

Gordon I second that, it was in the chat as you requested the seeds, and I did it too. Meeeeeeee toooooooo!

8/23/2005 11:41:59 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

ok, ok, guys, you got me again... bad memory....LOL.... can't think back as far as last winter....LOL.... but added the names Gordon and Hans Werner to my list!

8/23/2005 4:20:44 PM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

and yes, Mike, you are actually still on top of my list. you gotta love my bad memory...LOL

8/23/2005 4:21:36 PM

Utah

LOL ... me thinks we started something ? !

8/23/2005 4:37:40 PM

San Diego

I'll stand up for the 950, mine did split this year, but it was cranking out big time with the pounds with no stump! 861 lbs, largest ever in san diego, missed southern california record by 11 lbs and was on a pace to go 1045 lbs real weight, she went light at about 8%, estimated at 945 lbs, weighd 861. She was on a pace for 1150 estimated. Great hot weather seed. Jimmy

8/23/2005 4:51:45 PM

Austria

Ok, so let me record the following:

Due to Martin`s bad memory the one who will get the most seeds is Mike Frantz, according to the list I will get the second most - YES!

What I have heard is that the german Post isn`t that reliable, letters will get lost sometimes.

Ok now, let`s say the seeds adressed to Mike Frantz get lost, then I will be the one with the most seeds.

Offer in advance:

Mike Frantz I will swap one or two of Martin`s seeds for one or two 1083s and/or certain picture CDs of `04 and hopefully `05 - ROFLMAO!

Heino

8/25/2005 5:09:30 AM

Itzetown City

Do'nt blame the German Post, it's in the US customs clearance if Mike did not get the seeds.

8/25/2005 8:39:57 AM