Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Springfield, Missouri

1844.

Green is locked in, it went 10% heavy, it's infused with pumpkin genes and it's the WR (next closest by weight are in the low 1500 # range).

1060 could be a good option, but I'd get 10 or more. Here are some cumulative probabilities (number of seeds grown- probability one or more will be a squash)

4 seeds - 68% probability of getting at least one squash
6 seeds - 82%
8 seeds - 90%
10- seeds - 94%

1/30/2017 11:09:52 PM

brotherdave

Corryton, TN

MO pretty much covered it. Basically the 1844 is (615 Cantrell x 282 Scherber) but a couple generations back. Most importantly the 282 was a selfed fruit grown on a clone from the plant that grew the 2009 Wallace. On paper the 282 should out produce the 2009. "SHOULD"

If grown by the right folks I'm confident there will be a 2000 pound squash grown from the 1844 maybe several.

1/31/2017 7:12:51 AM

hammerthrow26

California

1844 reminds me of the 1725 harp.
WR+outperformed everything in the patch+self pollinated.
It was the 5th biggest fruit grown in the west this year, regardless of class.

1/31/2017 7:34:04 AM

Essex, UK

So to take this a step further... Seeing as the 1844 is so far ahead of the rest of the squash world, would you be inclined to self, sibb or cross it with some something else? If so what would you choose for crossing?

1/31/2017 1:07:38 PM

jsterry

East Tennessee

cross it with the 2624 or 2145 :)

1/31/2017 2:50:23 PM

Essex, UK

Oi, stop knicking my ideas ;)

1/31/2017 3:34:43 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

would be an awesome cross with our old school 834* if you could get one to pop!

2/1/2017 12:03:17 AM

Springfield, Missouri

^ a 2000 pound squash with the shiny/polished black/green color of a 834 would be stunning.

2/1/2017 1:35:50 AM

brotherdave

Corryton, TN

The next level may be reached by also growing the 1545.5 Holub 16 (2109 Zywiec x 1060 Holub). It will grow a PUMPKIN. The 1060 pollinator was the plant that grew the 1844. Now if you self it, use a green 1060 or pollinate with a 1844 your another step ahead of your squash competitors next year. If you can find a spot for an extra plant that could grow a 2000+ pounder consider this one. The gap is all but gone between pumpkins and squash with these newer crosses. More great crosses coming later!

2/2/2017 8:17:47 AM

Essex, UK

Would be interested to know if Scott reckons the 1844 seed can go bigger or if it'll take another year or two to get the green out of the 1545 or another cross to better the record.

2/2/2017 12:15:46 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I was surprised how well the 615 seed did: 1578*, and surprised how well the 1060 seed did: 1844.5*. Whatever genes in the AGs that make them bigger must be pretty powerful and heritable.

The 1844.5* was among the top 98.4%ile so I don't really know if another little bit greater proportion of AG genes will be needed for 2000 lb greenie, or if we're there already potential-wise. Looking ahead to the 3000 lb greenie, we will probably want to keep crossing in the top AG genetics.

Here are some numbers for the 1844.5* pedigree:

1578* Holub '14 seed (615 Cantrell x self) is 50:50 AG:SQ - fixed green gene
1478.5 Holub '14 seed (282 Scherber x 615 Cantrell [1578*]) is 75:25 AG:SQ - hidden green gene
1060 Holub '15 seed (1478.5 Holub x self) is 75:25 AG:SQ - F2 green throwing 1/4 green and 3/4 pumpkin
1844.5* Holub '16 seed (1060 Holub x self) is 75:25 AG:SQ - fixed green gene
1545.5 Holub '16 seed (2109 Zywiec x 1060 Holub [1844.5*]) is 88:12 AG:SQ - hidden green gene

2/2/2017 2:31:27 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I like the 1844.5* seed to go consistently green and big, but the 1060 could still have more in it for sure. Consider the 1060 if you want to accept a slightly higher risk, (and more initial work selecting for greenie), for slightly higher potential reward.

Another way of saying that is that I expect the 1844* average potential to be higher and standard deviation lower than the 1060. The higher standard deviation on the 1060 could be an advantage if you get lucky, because the upper tail of the distribution might be beyond the 1844. That's mostly speculation of course.

2/2/2017 2:42:04 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

and weighing in on crosses...

Selfing is always a good option, in my opinion, especially if you're only doing one squash patch. That ensures that you have some seeds that will produce green. Then also pollinate an AG or two with the green pollen to set yourself up for 2 years out. That has been my strategy.

Out crossing is such a crap shoot because you don't know what your pollinating plant will produce necessarily and you could be polluting a monster fruit with a 400 lb dud pollinator.

Including a 1545.5 in the mix, like brotherdave's plan, is a good one too.

There are many good options depending on your objective.

Putting a pure squash back in to the advanced genetic seeds would produce numbers like this:
(1844.5* Holub x 100% SQ) seed would be 38:62 AG:SQ - green locked in
(1545.5 Holub x 100% SQ) seed would be 44:66 AG:SQ - backcross 1/2 green and 1/2 pumpkin.

Those don't look favorable to me in terms of the %AG and size potential. So I wouldn't be too hopeful if you did that, but who knows. A giant black beauty would be awesome. You could move forward again with some creative hybrid crosses and boost that AG percentage back up in a few years.

2/2/2017 3:01:09 PM

Springfield, Missouri

Well said Scott. I'm a proponent of outcrossing squash with AGs; weight is more important than looks. I'm hoping to cross the 1844 with the 1625 Gantner, 800 McMullen, and my 1079.5 (220 DeBacco X Self) +12%.

I hope that pumpkin and squash people listen to your advice on selfing, rather than making a blind cross, where the pollinator could be a potential dud. Selfing is one of the best tools a breeder has. If the breeding program is designed correctly the breeder can quickly remove deleterious/undesirable genes while maintaining genetic diversity.

To remove deleterious/undesirable genes self all seeds from a given cross, and then select from the right tail of the bell curve for the trait you are improving. This can be done for one to several generations. This process will also make progeny more uniform, as 50% of remaining heterozygous genes become homozygous for every selfing event.
Scott-"I expect the 1844* average potential to be higher and standard deviation lower than the 1060"
The lower standard deviation means that the offspring of the 1844 will be more similar to one another than the offspring of the 1060 were to one another; due to selfing event. Using a selfed line as a pollinator helps reduce the chance of crossing with a "dud". Notable selfed lines 1725 Harp & 1625 Gantner... wouldn't have a 2600 WR without these.

To maintain genetic diversity make sure your selfed lines aren't too closely related; example 1495 Stelts line & 1725 Harp line. Cross unrelated inbred lines to restore genetic diversity and hybrid vigor. Avoid growing from just one seed line; example modern squash derived primarily from the *895 Hester.

2/2/2017 11:52:54 PM

Essex, UK

Interesting stuff, thanks guys. Certainly got a better idea of what I might do
in the patch this year now.

2/3/2017 1:07:52 PM

Super Sonic Squashman

Emerald City

I really wanted to thank all of you for you advice and feedback! It's also a real honor to hear directly back from you Scott on this issue. You all have really helped me understand squash genetics to a much higher degree now. Finding a place in my patch at the very least for the 1844 Holub is pretty much a given. I may just self it. However, just say that I pollinate it with a 2145 McMullen or a 2096 Meier. This is where I may be confused. If I made that cross I think I would have a 1/4 chance of getting a squash from the seeds created from that new fruit. Correct? Or, am I wrong? Then if I did get a squash grown form those seeds the following year I would have to self it the year after that in order to get the green locked in again. Is that part correct too? If not, could someone help explain what I would need to do to get the green locked in again?

2/3/2017 7:48:14 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

supersonic- not quite right on the pumpkin cross. those seeds (green x pure AG = gg x PP) will all look like pumpkins, but have a hidden green gene (= Pg). You need another year of crossing (self or sib = Pg x Pg) to get to the 1/4 gg, 1/2 Pg, and 1/4 PP. where gg is the greenie. Send me an email bathabitat at gmail.com and I'll send you a article explaining it.

2/4/2017 1:32:12 AM

Springfield, Missouri

If you have a smaller growing area you could always backcross the F1 (Pg) with a squash (gg). The result of this cross would be 1/2 pumpkins with the hidden squash gene (Pg), and 1/2 squash (ss). With this method you do not have to grow as many seeds to get a green one, but the backcross {(Ps X ss) abbreviated BC1} won't have as much AG in it as the F2 generation {(F1 X F1) or (Pg X Pg)} Scott described above.

BC1 example:{(1844 Holub X 2145 McMullen) X 1844 Holub} The progeny would genetically be %81.25 AG and %18.75 squash. Phenotypically the progeny would be 1/2 Pumpkin hidden squash gene (Pg), 1/2 Squash (gg).

F2 example:{(1844 Holub X 2145 McMullen X Self} The progeny would genetically be %87.5 AG and %12.5 squash. Phenotypically the progeny would be 3/4 pumpkin (1/4 PP, 1/2 Pg) and 1/4 squash (gg)

2/4/2017 10:39:49 AM

Springfield, Missouri

On F2 example should be {(1844 Holub X 2145 McMullen) X Self}. Sorry about that.

2/4/2017 10:43:04 AM

Jay Yohe

Pittsburgh, PA

Wow this is confusing.

2/4/2017 3:08:00 PM