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British Columbia, Canada

Has anyone else ever had their seedlings stall out and look like they might die? This is the second year in a row where my plants germinate and are growing good before they suddenly nearly stop growing when the first or second true leaf appears and any of the growth that does occur is slow and sickly looking. What causes this? I haven't given them any ferts and they're growing in pretty large containers so I don't think they're root bound. Am I watering them to much or something?

4/29/2022 6:54:53 PM

drier and warmer

4/29/2022 7:45:23 PM

Partlow,Va

agree

4/29/2022 11:20:31 PM

Grittyville, WA

Hows your light intensity. My guess is that... or too cold at night?

4/30/2022 12:24:11 AM

Watlington, UK

The problem might be your 'pretty large containers'. Seedlings need smaller containers to start, and then you transplant as they get too big.

"When you first start seeds, you need small containers that can be kept moist before the seed germinates. Once the seed germinates, the soil must be able to dry out somewhat. With a tiny seedling there is only a small root system of course and this can only take up so much water. If it can't remove most of the water, Damping Off will follow, and that leads seedling death."

4/30/2022 3:34:15 AM

Grittyville, WA

Seed starting mix has inadequate nutrients. Maybe they need fertilizer. Pics would help. Ive killed some by watering too much. When Im too lazy to water correctly, I swear by hydrogen peroxide. The oxygen prevents root rot.

4/30/2022 3:49:09 AM

Syracuse, NY

Jiffy Mix Natural and Organic, 12 dry quarts;
1/3 of a gallon of water - no more(!);
1/2 cup of Holland's BioGrow Endo Plus;
Mix with broom handle, very thoroughly;
Seed-Starting Mix temp. of 88-92 F - usually 72 hours 'til SS Mix disturbance;
Seed coat extraction once apparent that no further heating is desired;
Basement table with 2 - 4' double 40-watt fluorescent tubes, one in each pair is full-spectrum, the other is aquarium, kept to be 1" - no more(!) above the leaves, 24/7(!);
Lighting of each plant individually becomes subjective as planting-out day approaches;
Temperature in basement is about 55-65 F as of right now to mid-June;
Small Martha Stewart fan blowing on low from 3-4 feet away at all times;
Plants love it all and do NOT get leggy;
Anyway, I looked your diary from last year and you had said that the same thing happened and it seems apparent that those seedlings indeed have a streaky, yellowish tinge to them that would have me worried;
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=323800

4/30/2022 4:57:57 AM

Syracuse, NY

I suggest a total changeout of your brands and copy my above which I have no trouble with;
I'm hoping you don't have the same END result as last year(!).
You would NOT believe what I'd propose to remedy your current problem(!)
Waaaaaayyyy out there, but, well, whatever---Not the below...

I do all of my sprouting in 16-ounce clear plastic Starbucks cups that are free from work
(not a Starbucks, lol and I have them stacked 6' high - I must drink a LOT of coffee!)
and would be tossed out otherwise;

Another thing I am trying and anyone that uses the big pots to start seeds in will also appreciate:

I am using a GIANT SHARPIE ('King Size') to create the hole in the Seed Starting Mix into which the seed will go;
It is to the same depth as how deep you would normally push the seed ('One Inch', supposedly, lol).
The 'KING SIZE' ('K') denotation starts at 1.5 inches, and the super-coiry SS Mix this time is very springy, so,
probably 'One Inch' is attained;
Set the seed tip in, cover over LIGHTLY and what this should do is give the seed
a more solid platform to shoot upward FROM whilst the LOOSELY-packed surrounding mix used to cover the seed will
allow it to sprout and flourish easily - otherwise, I feel that the seed without very much support
takes a LOT longer to establish enough roots to get going in a...wait for it...Jiffy!!!

YES, I know that the seed leaves forming and filling in push off the seed coat,
but not always and any progress is good progress.
Ha Ha - I have not SPROUTED any this way, but Oh, they'll be comin' up soon!
Have a Great Pumpkin Day! eg

4/30/2022 5:07:50 AM

Partlow,Va

something else I thought of. I start in 4" or so plastic pots that I reuse. I just repotted some seedlings and threw away a few pots that just don't breath and dry out. The plastic is a different compound on some pots.

4/30/2022 7:36:37 AM

Quebec

We used JMS to grow microbes this year. Korean natural farming. Never had plants as nice as this after two weeks the 0ne gallon pots were full of roots.

4/30/2022 8:34:36 AM

Bethlehem CT

Good advice on here, often times poor root and plant growth are tied to a pot that is too large coupled with soil that is too moist and growing conditions that are not warm or bright enough.
AG pumpkins do have strong aggressive roots (when placed in comparison to other species) so they usually do thrive, but if too many poor conditions are met even they can flounder and fail.
If none of the above applies to you Jordan, Perhaps there are salts that are too high in your soil media, or disease or herbicide in the media or on the pots. Pictures would help id the problem for sure.

4/30/2022 9:09:10 AM

Western NY

Let's see some pics

4/30/2022 9:12:21 AM

British Columbia, Canada

Thanks everyone for the advise. I'll post some pics of them today.

4/30/2022 11:20:44 AM

Oak Grove, Mn

I am not understanding the "too big of a pot" theory. Can someone explain it to me as to why? Big Moon or Gerald?

4/30/2022 12:03:19 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

One thought I have Jordan...what are you using for lights. A T5 doesnt put out as many uMols as the current generation of Led or Ceramic Metal Halide grow lights. I started my plants under about 500 uMols...am gradually increasing it to 800+ Umols. By the time, the plants are out, they will not have to be hardened against the suns intensity. Temp is another issue.The initial growth of the plant is from energy stored in the cots. Future growth needs sufficient light.

4/30/2022 7:09:28 PM

British Columbia, Canada

I am using this:

https://www.amazon.ca/SANSI-Daylight-Full-Spectrum-Light/dp/B07NKPDLQT/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=3R3YHI63FCBSA&keywords=sansi+grow+light&qid=1651365047&sprefix=sansi%2Caps%2C276&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzQTJJTUZNRTdOU1dFJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjY3ODYxMjZNR0NMUDlWV1hCRSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTMwODE2M0dCNlk2N0pOSFA3TiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

4/30/2022 8:31:52 PM

Colorado

Jordan,i'm guessing its your potting soil.It appears to have a lot of wood in it.Did you use the same stuff last year.

4/30/2022 8:48:53 PM

British Columbia, Canada

Yes there is a bit of wood in it. I used different stuff last year though.

4/30/2022 9:02:40 PM

British Columbia, Canada

Is the wood harmful to them?

4/30/2022 9:12:44 PM

Colorado

It starves nitrogen from the seedling.

4/30/2022 9:48:50 PM

Bethlehem CT

That is a great question Bnot. The main reason is that if a plant is very small and the pot is very big, the plant is unlikely to use up the water that it is given and this soil will tend to stay on the wet side which most plant's roots really dislike. Soil that is too moist for too long a period is not good.
As growers there is often a tendency to water the pot regardless of the plants needs. This will predispose the plant to issues like root rot and the plant will die.
The ideal situation for a plant is that it can be watered and then the media will dry out over the course of the day. Roots don't like being overly wet or wet for too long. Some species are far more susceptible to wet soil than others. (I have killed more snapdragons and ranunculus than I can count.) The old term people would say with these sensitive plants is that you will "kill these plants with kindness". i.e. too much water or fertilizer.

4/30/2022 10:37:10 PM

Bethlehem CT

The potting up idea is more a way of dumbing things down and increasing your chances for success. If I am a nursery owner that grows bedding plants I know that the high school kid that comes in to water the plants will water them all the same amount regardless of the species or if the soil requires it. It is a good safe guard to have the pot appropriately sized so that the excess water can drain off. Another example of dumbing things down is with orchids, they say to give an orchid a cube or two of ice every so often instead of watering it. That isn't because orchids need cold water it is because most people will kill their orchid with too much water! The ice cube gives the correct portion and does not overwater the plant.
When I water plants in a greenhouse I generally am very careful as to what plants get watered,I may skip a day here and there if the soil is still wet from the previous watering. When I go away on vacation for a week I am likely to return to dead plants and fungus gnats, because the person filling in for me used a one sized fits all approach with the watering.

4/30/2022 10:37:44 PM

Bethlehem CT

https://www.gardenmyths.com/potting-up-correct-pot-size/

4/30/2022 10:38:25 PM

Bethlehem CT

Jordan I just looked at your diary, I think your plants will be fine but I would switch to a soilless starting media to grow in next year. Most of the peat based ones are good. (In some places they use coconut fibre) Your mix looks like it has a lot of compost in it. Who knows what is in that compost.

4/30/2022 10:48:04 PM

Syracuse, NY

You all may be looking at last year's pics; You may not be looking at them because of MY posting of the link to them, but just FYI.
Jiffy Mix Natural and Organic for me.
I did notice a lot of coir-like stuff in mine that I mixed up 2 nights ago. I'll see, but I'll bet it works fine - cash money on it!
Well, with more viable seeds, perhaps - these are from '05, lol---eg

4/30/2022 11:09:10 PM

Syracuse, NY

re-vi

4/30/2022 11:13:47 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

Thank you for the response big moon. I can still use the bigger pots for plants(backups and pollinators) that I know cant go into the garden for 3-4 weeks or more. I just have to be very careful with my watering technique. One of the biggest issues with the indoor tomato growers is overwatering.

I have had some crazy cots also this year. They all have snapped out of it with the exception of one. I used Happyfrog with earthworm castings mixed in it.

5/1/2022 7:25:47 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

JABC, wood in the soil isn't a good thing. Slows the nitrogen cycle, and my observation is it is more prone to mold and other pathogens when over watered (think mushrooms on logs). Warm and dry like Don Young said in the first post. It is very easy to overthink these plants when in the early stages, sometimes simpler is better.

5/1/2022 9:25:47 AM

Lodi, California

Smallmouth or mycorrhizae, another fungi

5/1/2022 11:11:37 AM

Grittyville, WA

I think wood can also steal phosphorous. The things that eat the wood are hungry for nutrients.

Yellow plants would mean low nitrogen or low ph. Plants that look green, but arent growing, probably both nitrogen and phosphorous.

5/1/2022 12:00:05 PM

British Columbia, Canada

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=330205

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=330206

5/1/2022 5:57:54 PM

Colorado

The leaf color looks good on those second true leaves. I think your good,and theyll be off to the races in 7 to 10 days.

5/1/2022 7:56:54 PM

British Columbia, Canada

I think the wood in the soil and perhaps too much water and too large of a container is what was bothering them. Now that I planted them in the garden I hope they'll snap out of it. Thanks everyone for the help.

5/1/2022 10:23:16 PM

Watlington, UK

From the latest pics they look absolutely fine. It's normal for nothing to happen in the first few days after transplantation as they adjust to their new conditions.

5/2/2022 4:21:06 AM

Bethlehem CT

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=330205

5/2/2022 8:02:23 AM

Bethlehem CT

Oops didn't mean to post that above. I was trying to cut and paste and I spaced out. LOL
The North Carolina State extension service put out a PDF with more information than any of you want to know about growing media and pot size. If any of you are plant nerds like myself you will enjoy reading it.
https://nurserycrops.ces.ncsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/container-soils-and-soiless-media-Bilderback-1982-great-article.pdf?fwd=no

5/2/2022 8:15:50 AM

Kutztown, PA

I'm wondering if anyone knows if there's any correlation between the age of a seed and it's initial growth period. Do old seeds start out slower? Of the eight I planted this year, 4 planters and 4 backups, the two older seeds came up slow and are still smaller than the others.

5/2/2022 3:21:20 PM

Grittyville, WA

Expect that older seeds should be given an extra week to catch up to the most vigorous new seeds... with a few odd exceptions. I had one old seed that sprouted this year like it was still young.

5/2/2022 5:23:04 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Garwolf (awesome name btw), define "older" seeds. I have grown 8 year old seeds and it grew just as well as a first year. Not sure on 10+ years.

5/3/2022 11:43:10 AM

Syracuse, NY

I think one of the main things governing seed viability over time is the treatmenmt of it whence harvested from the pumpkin; If it sits in pumpkin stew inside the fruit or in a bucket until you retrieve the seeds and they are not washed/rinsed/dried fully right away before stew characteristic ('Ewww!'), the long-term effect may be poor germination, either in the next sprouting test or over the long run. I believe any seed is 'old' once it is over 10 years from retrieval, just MHO. I have a seed from '14, my 178 that is the fastest sprouter I've seen that's of my own, whereby another seed of mine that was only like 9 years old does NOT sprout anymore and was from the above scenario. My 301.5 from '05 sprouts slowly and is yet pretty reliably viable - again, harvested by myself - eric g

5/3/2022 1:34:20 PM

Kutztown, PA

Back at ya Smallmouth. Not many people know a "Garwolf" is a real thing - Google it. I don't have any experience with pumpkin seeds. I just observed my older seeds this year didn't sprout as rapidly and the plants don't seem quite as robust. What I do know is most of my germination problems with other types of seeds were produced by making the starting mix to wet.

5/3/2022 2:24:47 PM