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Georgetown, Ontario

I didn't want to hijack the post below so I'll start a new one. Marv, I've seen you post several times about how we should be keeping better records of our tomato genetics and what lines they came from. I'm a bit confused, so maybe you can set me straight. Most tomatoes listed are listed as x open or x self as I think it's very difficult to actually make specific controlled crosses like we do with pumpkins. If we are not protecting our blossoms from bees can they cross with other plants or are they always self pollinated if we just flick or vibrate the blossoms or let nature take its course? If they can cross with other plants and we are not protecting our blossoms from bees (which I don't know of a grower that does) is it possible that most of our genetic lines are a mix of lines like Big Zac, Delicious, Belgian Giant, etc. and are not true lines? I would love to know.

4/7/2014 7:27:33 PM

Butler,PA

Pumpkin Shepherd,

Very well worded and hopefully the better growers will help growers like you and me out. Last year, which was my first year I grew a 2.76 pounder and I didn't know what I was doing. All I knew it was from a 3.98 Cole seed and I couldn't tell you if it was pollinated from my nighbors Roma tomato plants or from the other blossoms on the plant itself--I just called it a self pollination. That probably will mess up future classification for my 2.76 which I will be planting this year. Any help out there?

Jim

4/7/2014 8:48:40 PM

Allentown, PA

This is why, example; In the 2012 season I grew a 2.86 LB Big Zac.
Like the overwhelming majority of those who grow tomatoes for competition I named this the 2.86 Diehl 2012. With those seeds from the 2.86 I grew a 4.46 LB Diehl in the 2013 season.

This season I will attempt to beat my 4.46 LB personal best with those same seeds.

As I continue season after season to advance this particular seed line if I did not notate that the original 2.86 LB tomato was a Big Zac then it becomes extremely easy to forget what strain of tomato I started with in 2012.

Boudyo has been growing out is lines for many seasons now but if he hadn't kept exact records from the beginning we are not aware as to the original strain of tomato that he started with.

Giant pumpkin growers grow their individual lines from pumpkins that have been crossed, crossed again and so on.

What does not change however is the fact that all giant pumpkin seeds we see producing weights can be traced back to one specific strain of pumpkin which is the Atlantic Giant from Dill.

This is not the case with giant tomatoes.

The world record came from the Delicious strain.
Many extreme heavy weights that have been grown came from the Big Zac Hybrid.

You also have a plethora of other distinct and unique strains that have produced tomatoes past the four pound mark.

Example; Ledbetter's Lunker, Brutus Magnum, Omar's Lebanese, Phil's Fantastic, Sebastian's Bull Bag, Church, etc, etc.

If we don't keep exact records as to the strain that we started with then we have a very difficult if not impossible time attempting crosses in which to better our chances at a line that would have the capability of producing even heavier weights than what we see now.

The importance of record keeping in the giant tomato community is essential to the future of giant tomato growing.

4/8/2014 6:45:17 PM

Allentown, PA

Also to answer the question concerning inadvertent cross pollination of different lines, the possibility of cross pollination via wind is statistically extremely low.

The issue of cross pollination via bee or other insect does exist. So what can we do to prevent this?

There are various ways to drastically decrease the possibility.

One is distance of varying strains. Planting different strains away from each other drops the possibility notably.

The next is the timing of blooms from strain to strain by planting each variety at different times.

However, the best way is usually the easiest to do and in this case this holds true.

Manually pollinating blooms by the use of an electric toothbrush then covering the blooms with a mesh bag or a piece of women's hosiery tends to be the quickest and most efficient way of ensuring that a cross statistically will not occur.

4/8/2014 7:10:44 PM

Massachusetts

ok, so back to the original question.... maters are self pollinated, but I think there is a slight chance that if you do not cover the blossoms there could be contamination from a nasty cherry mater infected bumble wandering bee.
this is why I cover all my tomato trusses until I'm happy or sad with the set. so I always list my maters as self, open or cross, just my opinion is that if you did not cover them at all and you call it self, then I think you are so correct in saying that a lot of the lines are mixed, also was just thinking about the variety debate, to me I do not care if it was grown on a zac or a delicious, I just want a large mater, I will grow them all, great post pumpkin shepherd! would still like to see what marv has to say??

4/8/2014 7:12:54 PM

Allentown, PA

@ Pumpkin Shepard; I know you were addressing Marv so I hope you didn't mind me chiming in here.

If so I apologize.

4/8/2014 7:13:55 PM

Allentown, PA

Most very heavy tomatoes have been grown from the Big Zac line that has shown to have specific traits such as numerous mega bloom development and oblong deformed fruits.

OP heirloom lines such as Delicious, Ledbetter's Lunker, Brutus Magnum, Omar's Lebanese, Phil's Fantastic, Sebastian's Bull Bag and Church all have their own specific traits that make up a true OP heirloom. These true heirloom lines have been grown season after season for years without any deviation in cross pollination.

Please read my previous post concerning ways to avoid Bee's crossing different tomato lines.

Anyone who is serious about growing giant tomatoes and advancing the science of such should be extremely serious about what lines they grow in order to reach a tomato weight of any notable value.

4/8/2014 7:26:29 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

This is a can of worms I try never to open. You will note that I have been harping mostly on at least keeping the name of the tomato straight but have not deviated into this topic. What PA_J says is pretty much the story. There is more. Most giant tomatoes have been coming from what we call beefsteak tomato varieties. Many of these have extruded styles which means the pistal extends beyond the anther and so is more or less flapping in the breeze where strange pollen could easily get onto the stigma and end up fertilizing the tomato's ovules. If several different kinds of pollen got on the stigma and fertilized the eggs, even the seeds in one tomato could be different than the others in that same tomato. Fortunately that does not happen very often and might even be called rare. But it does happen.

4/8/2014 7:59:27 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Very few people cover all of their potential new seed blossoms though they may do some to try to be certain the blossom is self pollinated. Growers do other things such as plant varieties away from each other or individual plants far apart or other things as noted by PA above. Cross pollination is unusual and so we get away with our carelessness relative to covering every blossom. Megablossoms are even more likely to receive extraneous pollen due to their size and odd shape. An effort should be made be more careful about these blossoms as they are where the next great seed may come from.

4/8/2014 8:04:13 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

What we more often do is plant lots of seeds from our most promising tomatoes and each year select out the best tomatoes that came from them and plant those. A tomato coming from a "bad seed' will not be chosen as we are not saving seeds from small tomatoes. These choices are what have helped keep heirloom varieties pretty much unchanged for the many years they have been grown. I hope this helps. Marv

4/8/2014 8:07:25 PM

Georgetown, Ontario

Thanks everyone for the comments. It's definitely not the first can of worms I've opened .... but I was curious as to how easily tomatoes would cross. I had visions of all these separate lines being muddled together into one mixed up genetics pool but it seems more likely that is not the case if cross pollination is a rare occurrence. Thanks again everyone, some great info here and definitely something to pay attention to.

4/8/2014 8:54:42 PM

Butler,PA

Marv or PA_J,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it will take several years to weed out new growers like myself who buys seeds through auctions or request them from other growers and grow them without concern about proper pollination protection or grow their own seeds, just to grow a big one. But....... there are good growers also that are not accurate at all either--In 2013 I planted a 5.11 seed and it produced a 2.47lb tomato---I contacted the owner of the 5.11 seed and he wasn't 100% sure of the genetics and/or if was a Delicious,Big Zac or a Tony Roma..... Giant tomato record keeping will take some time to establish true genetic lines. I guess in the mwantime, we just try to grow the biggest tomato we can and start better record keeping...Jim

4/8/2014 11:53:20 PM

Allentown, PA

@ Stawecki,

I agree with you that there are growers that do not adhere to a strict established regime based on rigid principals.

These growers are fully capable of growing a heavy weight that would be at a very high level.

As you said in your comment the owner of 5.11 seed wasn't 100 percent sure of the genetics and this is the very issue that Marv and people like myself are attempting to change.

If you don't know the history then there is nothing you can do outside of researching further to obtain the history of the seed.

With that being said there is plenty you can do concerning keeping your own records as accurately and as precisely as possible so we in the overall community will know what you did and with what seed you grew it with.

It is what it is. Let's just all agree to keep as accurate a history as possible and we all win.

Good luck to you in your season Stawecki. :O)

4/9/2014 6:54:05 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Amen.

4/9/2014 10:33:11 AM