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On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Is everyone using this technique for determining nutrient needs in their garden? If you are, where are you getting your target values? Solomon or Astera or McKibben or someone else? They don't all agree.

1/3/2019 2:09:30 PM

Grittyville, WA

By minerals do you mean everything or just calcium magnesium potassium? There are many minerals but some are considered to be standard base minerals? I am certainly not well educated enough to answer. Please help me understand the question!

1/3/2019 3:44:02 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

Marv, your studies this winter have put you way ahead of the tomato growers here. Please start teaching us. I am sad that it is not a time in my life when I could be studying with you. In three to four months I will be trying to make a new garden out of nothing. I am going to send my soil test to you, and see what your recommendations are. I am wondering how many people here will internet research Solomon, Astera and McKibben to see the level of study you are at?

1/3/2019 7:24:30 PM

Bloomington, IN USA

I have Michael Astera’s book & am quite impressed by it.
I’m still not sure what the optimum levels are for extreme competitive growing though, which I think is a completely different kettle of fish.

1/3/2019 8:42:30 PM

Bethlehem CT

This is a really interesting subject, Here are my thoughts; A" balanced" soil is far more complex than science can fully explain. (certainly more complex than I can understand) I have seen many giant pumpkin growers with very different soil test numbers and yet even with the differing ratios they can still grow world class sized pumpkins. How is that possible? It is definitely a science, but also an art.
Personally, I tend to go with the organics as I am intimidated by adding singular micronutrients to tailor fit my needs. I know that nature is able to deliver things in appropriate amounts and most organic materials carry a balance of nutrients. Organics from the sea are even better as they often contain some micronutrients which tend to get washed out of the soil over time and may not be present in organic material from inland sources. Think about the human body, doctors constantly are trying to figure out the ideal nutrient levels for us, each doctor has his own opinion, but there are some common truths. Forgive my ramblings, but it's winter. Take them for what they are worth.

1/4/2019 10:12:45 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Balancing soil nutrients is about developing target values for each nutrient in your soil, getting a soil test to see where your levels are and then adding to your soil whatever is needed to bring your soil up to the target. This is a simple explanation. Most agronomists are balancing 11 nutrients including calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium. The balancing is centered around the total cation exchange content of the soil in your garden.

1/4/2019 12:34:39 PM

Bethlehem CT

Pumpkin growers have primarily focused on three nutrients calcium , magnesium and potassium. Here is what Ron Wallace has to say about the subject.
"Cation Exchange Capacity: Is the soil's ability to retain and supply nutrients. The lower the CEC, the lower amount of nutrients will be supplied to plants. A higher CEC will hold and supply more nutrients. Positively charged ions of Potassium, Calcium and Magnesium account for most of the soils cations. Sandy soils will commonly have a lower CEC ( less than 10 )Most pumpkin growers soil that is high in OM will have a CEC above 15.Soils that contain a higher amount of clay will also have a higher CEC. We usually have a CEC of 15-20. A higher CEC will also slow down the leaching of soil nutrients. The percentage base saturation of the CEC we look for is 65-70 % Calcium, 10-15% Magnesium and 7-10% potassium. You do not need to be 100% base saturated as long as the above nutrients and pH are in line. Our soil is sandy loam and we have to "beef it up" every fall and spring. Nutrient losses on our sandy soil can be serious during the summer so we tissue test every other week. To bring up your CEC do it slowly over a period of a few seasons. The worst thing you can do ( and we have done it ) is to put down more compost or manure than whats needed. Doing this will only throw off the balance of your soil and during the process of summer soil mineralization release too much nutrients at one time. I would rather "spoon feed" nutrients during the summer. Hope this helps."

Ron

1/5/2019 10:32:39 AM

Bethlehem CT

It seems that with many pumpkin growers they have been doing the "spoon feed" method in regards to plant nutrition. In Steve Geddes account of how he grew his North American record he stated that he "spoon feeds" his nutrients through daily irrigation. Using a marvel 20-20-20 complete with micronutrients. I have also read Beni Meiers account as well and he grows in a similar fashion. He just trusts in the fertilizers complete nutrition and applies the fertilizer as needed. Making sure he hasn't over applied by frequently checking the Electrical Conductivity of the water in his soil. Steve Geddes goes by the looks of his plants to tell if the fertlilizer regime needs to be amped up or scaled down. To me that is the art of it, he is using his gut instincts to determine what he does. Not many of us can do this like he does. I know this information is based on what pumpkin growers do and surely a tomato's nutritional needs are different than a pumpkins but perhaps this can stimulate some thought or at least get the ball rolling with tomatoes.

1/5/2019 10:45:33 AM

Eastern Shore of VA

Great insight John.

1/5/2019 1:50:48 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Most of the growers using soil balancing techniques are trying to feed the soil, actually the organisms in the soil, rather than feeding the plants directly. This results in the use of organic products for the most part though not always completely. Also the feeling is that what is missing from the soil determines how well things grow and so one of the goals is making sure everything needed is present while at the same time avoiding excesses. Products added to the soil are broken down by soil organisms into nutrients that can be utilized by the plants. Going this route pretty much means eliminating the use of things like Miracle Grow and other chemical fertilizers that feed the plant directly and not the soil ecosystem, things living in the soil.

1/6/2019 2:05:37 PM

Grittyville, WA

I don't think most of us have soil good enough to not get some benefit from chelated fertilizers, I think if your soil is exceptionally high in humic acid you can do well without chelation. I want better soil, and I'm getting there. But I don't want to underestimate the results that chemical fertilizers can achieve, either. Not against organic at all either system could get excellent results. Organic systems are probably more forgiving, but getting top results will still require a lot of inputs and attention to detail, I think.

1/7/2019 12:21:42 AM

Grittyville, WA

I think there is a better chance of growing a world record tomato organically than a world record pumpkin. I think... Going out on a limb here... Many tomato growers over fertilize with chemicals? Can the soil easily hold enough resources in the root zone to (organically) grow a ten pound tomato?

Out on a limb, but I think getting away from overly heavy applications of cheap chemicals is one small step towards getting better results. Cooler temperatures might help delay ripening and be more important than pushing fertilizers hard. Our best were in the first and last part of the season. 5.04 was extremely late set and nights were in the low 40s.

1/7/2019 12:39:48 AM

Grittyville, WA

Marv, I read this awhile ago and I have since dismissed the idea of perfect cation balancing... although I will say I have had good results with pumpkins and tomatoes in an area that tested near to what big moon posted, (about mr Ron wallace's ratios).

https://onpasture.com/2014/06/23/soil-balancing-does-it-work/

1/7/2019 3:32:40 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

The article was a good one but there were a lot of comments made by readers who went in different directions. For those not interested in soil balancing, don't do it. For those who are, proceed. Everyone has a personal bias about what works best. Nothing new there. I will say this though, there are a quite a few people growing big pumpkins who try to balance their soil nutrients. I find it interesting and will be giving it a try. Doesn't Ron Wallace use the soil balancing technique? I am just suggesting that growers look at it and consider it. I started this thread asking how many were using the technique and I guess the answer is, not many?

1/7/2019 8:18:23 PM

Grittyville, WA

Good question. I bet most pumpkin growers are trying to copy the top pumpkin growers but for tomatoes we dont have a lot of established info. Good luck. They seem to do well where pumpkins do well my guess is they can handle more organics and more acidity as long as some calcium is available.

1/7/2019 8:45:29 PM

Grittyville, WA

My guess is aluminum is the elephant in the room.
Its a 'bad cation'. Because at low ph it acts as an anion? It will bind your plants minerals. My guess is Dan has a system that eliminates aluminum uptake or aluminum from his growing medium. I think aluminum is the elephant in the room. Plants would rather get minerals from fungus than from the soil because the fungus protects the plant from aluminum uptake?

1/7/2019 9:10:02 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Anyone have any ideas on what the Target Values for tomatoes might be?

1/8/2019 3:46:30 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

There has been a lot of discussion about the target level for Boron. I believe the consensus is 4 pounds per acre. I have heard that the Pattons use 8 pounds per acre for their target but others say this would be toxic.

1/9/2019 10:45:02 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Glenomkins Aluminum at the pH levels we are growing at are mostly insoluble and not available to the plants. If you are growing in soil that is pH 6.5 to 7 you should really have no trouble with aluminum. Aluminum is common and makes up around 7% of the soil on planet earth. If it were not in an insoluble state it would be a real problem for all growers. My soil has 902 pounds per acre of Aluminum but with my soil pH at 7 there is no problem.

1/9/2019 7:02:18 PM

Gone With The Win

Good point gleb

1/9/2019 7:11:55 PM

Gone With The Win

*glen.... love autocorrect

1/9/2019 7:12:30 PM

Grittyville, WA

Hey marv yeah ok I have not researched in detail so I dont know the solubility levels very well. It may not be an important issue for you but I still bet Dan has a system that is anti-aluminum. Just a hunch. We are at 6.0 out here. I think I will get great results if I figure out the issues with (yes, tons of it) aluminum in our volcanic ash-based soil. I am not sure if aluminum uptake is controlled only by ph. Dont underestimate aluminum just because its everywhere does not mean its benign... Notably there is no biological necessity for it in any living organism. Virtually every other soil element is used by life but every living thing seems to want to avoid Aluminum... It has such a nice name but what if it was called Uledonium... Or Uselesium? Does sound more suspicious and perhaps bad. A wolf can look like a sheep if it wears a sheepskin. Well maybe I am paranoid or maybe I am correct. Yes, I do know I sound paranoid.

1/10/2019 9:43:13 PM

Grittyville, WA

I don't mean to be a distraction. I'm just explaining my own thinking about what it takes to get good results. I'm going in a different direction...

Marv, I'm sure you will find your own way to get the results you want.

In the end the effort matters more than the direction. I know your effort will be rewarded. With effort, we can both figure out how to grow like Dan.

1/11/2019 2:34:29 AM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Glen. just wondering what your soil Aluminum level is.

1/11/2019 8:13:55 AM