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Princeville, IL

Does anyone know the origin of white seeds from orange pumpkins vs brown seeds. Was it something back in MOMBERT, CALAI, ROSE ETC or before that. Some times it seems my reddest orange pumpkins have white seeds but by no means a sure thing.

1/6/2021 9:53:55 AM

Jericho Vermont

Most of the seeds I grew in the early 2000's had a lot of Howard Dill genetics in them and they were typically white coated seeds. Back then the orange genetics had a high percentage of blossom end splits and very thin shells that went very light to chart. I believe the modern orange might not have the same reddish orange colors but are less apt to BES and go closer to chart.

1/6/2021 6:41:32 PM

Princeville, IL

I love red/orange pumpkins but you are right in that most of my red orange do go light. Not as big a problem when selling commercially but not good for weighoff.

1/6/2021 8:38:55 PM

Colorado

567.5 mombert white seed
846.5 Calai brown
older squash usually white.

1/6/2021 9:46:20 PM

Syracuse, NY

I could go through my seed collection and make some sort of general picture but it'd be to no avail; It's most likely a matter of dominant vs. recessive genes as to what determines the seed color even in a first crossing, AS IN the first evidence of a new cross in the first place is the seed color/size/shape/vigor in sprouting, etc.;

It's probably been going on for millenia before we ever took note of it;

I don't care if i'm wrong in asking that when sweet corn crosses with other types of corn, is the result possibly undesirable if the sweet corn seeds take on the field corn characteristics, since we EAT the resulting seeds? - and why DO cows have to eat anything but sweet corn, lol?

All I know without looking is that my 845 Bobier (TAN) X 1140 Stelts (White) cross in 2001 resulted in TAN seeds in my 728.5 PB at the time; Then i thought, gee, i'd better be right about these seed colors, lol---I was intrigued to find that my #20 seed (Prizewinner X 689.5) is tan, (#20 X SELF) is tan also but i just got a 506.8 cross back from a buyer and they are paper-white (#20 tan X 2003 Haist tan); conversely, 2003 Haist X 301.5 (tan X tan) = tan and 2003 X 20 (tan X tan) = tan also; Maybe there's a Punnett Square for seed color for AGs somewhere; Has there ever been any tan FP seeds? I've never seen any...

I like the white seeds for the reason that they are easier to write on and snip the edges of, lol---eg

1/7/2021 1:00:02 AM

Bethlehem CT

Anyone remember what color the 670 Daigle was?

1/7/2021 7:50:44 AM

Syracuse, NY

I should have started at the BEGINNING of this diary, but it is ME, lol---bottom right, surprisingly, though I've never seen one, light TAN;

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=128223

VERY interesting diary, BTW---eg

1/7/2021 8:17:59 AM

Grittyville, WA

So 670 was tan/brown. I think it's a very simple 4 square Punnet square

T= Tan
w= white

TT Tw
Tw ww

Only ww is actually white. Tw hides the recessive "w" gene but appears tan (scientifically spoken: the phenotype is tan when the genotype is heterozygous for both allels, hence "w" white is the recessive gene)...

If anyone has info that supports a different explanation please speak up?

1/7/2021 8:37:25 AM

Colorado

Mr house ,k. herrmann would be a great source of info.Hes familiar with the waterman and gancarzs seed colors.If he'd only get a computer and a cell phone :) If memory serves me right the 670 daigle was a white seed.

1/7/2021 10:31:53 AM

Princeville, IL

Kurt is a good friend of mine. Buys giants from me every year. Yes I wish he would get a computer.also. He is a wealth of knowledge. I can’t remember a seed I grew 2 or three years ago. He reminders them off the top of his head from decades ago. Loll. I will ask him next time he calls.

1/7/2021 10:40:33 AM

Centennial Colorado

I grew an 1803 Gadberry and a 1911 Urena. Both were white tipped. I crossed the Gadberry with the Urena and got a white tip, but when crossing the Urena with the Gadberry I got tan. This year I crossed my 511 Ritter with the 1718 Ceja. The Ceja was tan and my 511 was white. The result was white tip even though it was white times Tan.

1/7/2021 11:17:03 AM

Grittyville, WA

White or white tipped? White tip is a nutritional/developmental issue. Although heterozygous plants might be more prone to it. So I guess partly it could be genetic.

1/7/2021 11:49:02 AM

Centennial Colorado

White as in thinner and less hard and white vs brown thicker and harder

1/7/2021 11:55:29 AM

Grittyville, WA

For the purposes of genetics if the seed has any tan at all then it's "Tw" or "TT" not "ww". Also a "ww" plant can produce white seeds containing the "T" gene if the pollinator had any "T" genes at all. Thus: You can plant a white seed, and even pollinate her with a "ww" male (this wont actually affect the color of the seed coat until the following generation) but the seeds in the pumpkin may still come up Tan. (50/50 odds.)

1/7/2021 12:03:52 PM

Grittyville, WA

... if the pollinator of the white seed was TT (you often do not know if a tan seed is Tw or TT because the white gene is very stealthy (hidden, recessive). Its a brainfull.

1/7/2021 12:07:46 PM

Centennial Colorado

I like the white gene better personally. Because it sprouts quicker and is easier to get the seed shell off.

1/7/2021 12:23:08 PM

Grittyville, WA

The thin ones can be delicious salted and roasted.

1/7/2021 1:57:19 PM

Syracuse, NY

It'd take me a week to digest the info, here, Gritty, so, are you more sure than I, of course, that seed color and so on is not affected by the cross being made right NOW?
In my real-life example above, my 506.8 (White) was 2003 Haist (Tan) X #20 (Tan). OOpsers! Sorry, I've just always thought that the SEED has results from the cross being made on-the-spot, NOT later, like the fruits themselves will;
Advise if you wish---eric g---Ahhh, Wintertime---ooohhh, Steve Miller...lol

1/7/2021 4:37:54 PM

Syracuse, NY

Guess I'd better stop Bigpumpkining @ 5 am or so - my 508.6 is my (100 seed T X 2003 Haist T), but the seed color is of the same scenario, lol---eg

1/7/2021 4:44:16 PM

Grittyville, WA

Momma plant's genetics determines the seed coat around her seed. The seed coat is essentially her own womb and it all comes from her mamma plant genes. What's inside the seed coat comes partly from the pappa (pollinator). We dont get to see any expression of his genes until the following season. Again the seed coat reflects only the momma plant's genes because it's part of the momma plant. Same as in humans the womb is 100% a part of the mom. What's inside the womb (embryo) is partly the dads. The embryo cant express any of it's own genetics unless everything goes well for ~180 days.

Just remember the seed coat is 100% part of the mother plant. It's an extension of the momma plant. It shows just her genes.

Again if I am wrong just educate me.

1/7/2021 6:23:38 PM

Syracuse, NY

I don't smoke, but need a cigarette now! Thanks! eg

1/8/2021 12:12:31 AM

Colorado

PP2 the strains now are all mutts.So you mix two pretty mutts that you think should produce white seeds and youll see some of those crosses throw brown seeds.Same with the squash.

1/8/2021 12:47:32 AM

Bethlehem CT

Gritty kins. This genetic stuff is not my cup of tea. So I don't know exactly what is going on in terms of recessive/dominant etc. I can only tell you what I have observed. I do believe that seed coat isn't just from the mom(like you said above), pumpkinpal (in his second post) mentions sweet corn. Have you ever planted a sh2 variety next to an SU or SE variety? The cross pollination between the two will ruin a batch of SH2 sweet corn. The kernels on a mature ear will be as starchy and dry as field corn. The pollinator affects the crop you are growing. In pumpkins we have to wait until the next year to see what the results of a certain cross will be in terms of what that plant will produce and grow. However the one thing that is affected is the seed itself. If I am wrong please set me straight.
I have grown AG's for many years now and I do remember growing pumpkins that are supposed to produce tan seeds (and do so for every one else) and then when I go to harvest the seeds I pull out white ones. Therefore I have assumed it is like the sweet corn comparison.

1/8/2021 1:55:53 AM

Syracuse, NY

I guess we'll hafta keep an eye on what seed colors are planted and what comes out of the pumpkins - HEY! we'll have a couple different crosses on the same plant and if any seeds are different from the others, that'll be known as a HOOT! I do it every year, lol and thank all of you guys for your inputs - my #2 computer's power supply died and one of the FEW 'sites that works on this Windows XP laptop is THIS one, so, yay! sane 4 a few more minutes. eg

1/8/2021 3:33:47 AM

Princeville, IL

Hope I have time to experiment with this. I am lucky to be able to grow several AG’s each year so will try different combinations to see what I get.hopefully in a year I will have results to give. I believe the male pollinator has to have an affect on seed color. I’m Mendallion genetics ( I taught genetics in biology class for a few years) when he crossed homozygous dominant green peas with homozygous recessive yellow peas the first generation was all heterozygous green. IIf the mom determined seed color the yellow peas would have produced yellow peas. Yellow peas did not show up until the second generation in a 3:1 ratio. I always enjoyed punnet squares but can’t say the kids did. That is one of ( I think) the 16 traits of peas he used to come up with dominant, recessive, and codominant ( red flowered peas crossed wiith white produced pink flowers) genes. Been 40 years since I was in the biology classroom but think what I presented is accurate.

1/8/2021 9:37:17 AM

Princeville, IL

Hope I didn’t put everyone to sleep.

1/8/2021 9:41:47 AM

Grittyville, WA

big moon, corn is an exception to the rule, because the seed coat is milky or transparent do you can see they embryo. I'm not sure corn has a seed coat at all actually. It's a much different plant. Monocots use their embryo leaves as a seed coat. They dont really have seeds in the traditional sense.

Anyhow yes you are correct that in corn the father does change the color of the seed/embryo.

There is an easy proof that in pumpkins this is not the case. Other than nutritional/developmental deficits, you wont have both thick and thin seeds in the same pumpkin.

1/8/2021 11:44:27 AM

Grittyville, WA

eg I have done mixed pollinations using multiple males... it doesnt change the seed coats. Other (environmental) factors can change the seed coats but I have never seen the father affect the seed coat or seed shape. Possibly the father could make a fatter embryo in some cases so you'd see some seeds more plump than others but yeah...

Experiment with it :) I have been trying to verify these ideas for a couple years which is why I am getting a bit long winded. I'll shut up.

1/8/2021 11:51:23 AM

Syracuse, NY

I'll make it easy on MYself from here on and go by the track record of whatever I'm gonna plant, lol! No, AG, not back to sleep - just had a three- hour nap! didn't help, lol---very informative and cool to hear from...YOU have quite a few of the orangest fruits I've ever seen and there are a few (like, two) in my collection for adding into my own must-plants; Ultimately for selling would be thin-shelled, HUGE-but-manageable 300- to 400-pounders and goodness knows, I've had those, lol; I'll still keep track of what my seed colors are - note to all >>> unless there is a grand-scale study, we may see results that don't cover the full spectrum of the needed # of specimens, (had to spell that 3 times) but it IS really cool to speculate, like Mendel did! Later--- Eric G

1/8/2021 4:29:06 PM

Bethlehem CT

Gritty kins I thought about that after I posted. You are right I have never retrieved both kinds of seeds from the same pumpkin, which would be likely if what I said was correct.

1/8/2021 8:33:46 PM

Syracuse, NY

one last thing 4 me-1 - if one were to pollinate one pumpkin with several males from different plants, there could still be the same color outcome as if they all were to have the same outcome separately (if each cross just happened to be destined to produce the same seed type as the others). and, one last thing 4 me-2,lol, if the seed itself is governed by the Mother, then, yes, the innards of any one seed could potentially be different from, whilst producing a different offspring than, the seed right next to it - hence the need for 100% closed pollinations on our part. pretty much what we now know from all the above, in my own words! I'm never looking at corn the same again - i'm sure i'll be reheating it a lot. i'll be going over here, now, lol---eg

1/8/2021 11:25:13 PM

Deer Park, WI

Im gonna side with Gritty on this one, both in terms of the simple mendelian inheritance of seed coat phenotype as well as the influence of maternal genetics on seed coat color.

Not only is the hypothetical science seemingly correct here, so are the collective observations of the group. I grew 1464 Brown (tan seed) and pollinated its fruit with 1211 Ailts (white seed). The resulting pumpkin contained tan seeds (704 Ailts), thus demonstrating the simple mendelian dominance/recessiveness described above.

i also agree with the take on sweet corn seed. Thats a whole different animal (plant?) that cannot be compared on an apples to apples basis.

A significant veer off of Joe's original path, but a good discussion.

1/23/2021 3:40:39 PM