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Canada

Ok Got a few questions here.

This all started about 3 years ago I noticed this problem in the one end of my home garden, Youd plant vegetables whatever, youd look after them all year long dureing the growing season have a great garden big bush healthy plants lots of fruit. soil was worked every fall year after year the garden was great. Now slowly over the past 4 years it has slowed down to the point of the past 2 years that NOTHING will grow in this garden. You can plant 20 healthy vegetable plants, pumpkin plants you name it and the plants will stay the same size ( same size as the day they were planted) all season long will produce no fruit wont grow a bit then will die off when summer gets going.

Ive had my soil tested at A@L labs and they tell me everything is good.

could the soil be infected? because i tried a small test this past summer I took a plant ( pumpkin) that i planted in the garden it did NOTHING for 2 weeks so i moved it over to my other patch and it took right off 2 weeks after transplant. but died shortly after as the leafs started turning brown from the stump outward till the plant was finished.

has anyone delt with infected soil before? what are my options now ?

lug all the soil away ( how deep do i go???) and replace it with new soil??? OR is there something I can add to the soil this fall till it in and it will kill any soil diease?

any suggestions would be great its SO bad that weeds wont even grow in the soil. only stuff added over the past few years were leaves every winter and cattle manure just the regular stuff.

thanks
Dave

11/2/2006 9:51:05 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Have another lab test the soil. The soil seems dead to me, drained of something. No single natural pathogen will cause what you are describing...ALL plant life suffers. The only thing that could do that is a chemical application.

11/2/2006 10:26:08 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Dave, I feel your pain...all my pkns rotted at 14 days and btween 30 and 50" circ this year. Does your soil test lab, test for soil pathogens? Fusarium, etc.
Have never had your prblm tho...everything else seems to grow in the pkn patch of 06.
Once my pkns went down, I planted other stuff in that area, and it seemed to grow okay. I think my AG aborts might have been heat related. Peace, Wayne

11/2/2006 10:48:28 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Actually a simple soil test tells us only the mineral content & pH. If a soil pathogen is present, a soil test won't tell us. However as Monty states, not many soil borne diseases would universally stall all vegetables. Some herbicides might cause a similar condition.

Have any of the afflicted plants been screened by a pathology lab? Additional points to consider:

Nematodes such as Root Knot.
Various Mosaic Virus strains.

11/3/2006 12:00:59 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Hey Dave,

Has the soil here been pounded with chemical fertilizers or herbicides in the past?

11/3/2006 7:43:02 AM

Canada

Tremor,

No plants have been screened yet. as for has the soil been pounded with chemical fertilizers. just regular doses of bone and blood meal nothing really that strong. I use to have an awsome garden year after year now NOTHING will grow i never had one single weed pop up this year its like a dryed out garden.

BUT the past 3 year soil tests tell me the soil is good and nothing is wrong

Ive got a large maple tree beside the garden ive been putting the maple tree leafs off that tree in the garden fall after fall would black spot effect the soil from the leafs?

Im going to send another sample in on monday what should i ask for this time?

Dave

11/3/2006 9:23:00 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Does the Maple have Tar spot? See:

http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/FactSheets/tarspot/tarspots.htm

If so, this is of no concern as this is not a disease of cucurbita.

Ask this lab if they can perform a pathogens test.

11/3/2006 10:37:00 PM

Canada

No tar, just spots on the leafs which kinda sink inward on the leafs.

I sent in another sample to re tested

Dave

11/5/2006 10:21:32 PM

Mocksville, NC

If the the 2nd test comes back clean! And soil sample good Then you have to step back , and ask yourself Is the soil alive,did you have good worm count? Monty chime in here! All can be corrected, and im going to the Basics here if the soil doesnt have soil build up of pathogens, and the soil is alive, alive meaning all creatures, feed opon one another from - miroscopic to vermin moles rabbits they all play a part i need to know these answers before i can put my 2cents in. Tremor is right , and you did a good thing to send off for test. But dont fret all can be corrected even in the worst soil.

11/6/2006 6:59:36 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Weeds won't grow? Something is seriously wrong with the soil. What sort of Maple Tree are we talking here? Is it a Silver Maple? Shallow Roots, Garden in area of dripline? We had a silver maple that no matter how much compost we added with in the dripline grass would not grow. The tree creates a dry, arid area around the roots.

11/6/2006 9:09:44 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

When plants won't grow...check for bugs also...I've had many tomato plants stop only to find the root ball was infested with root eating larva...they never got to grow a good root system and when summer comes they die... to late to look for the larva now they're already gone. check early and often.

11/6/2006 3:25:35 PM

White Plains, NY

Any possibility that the soil was tampered with (poisoned) by an unk. party?

11/6/2006 7:51:33 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Tremor, can Fusarium...and other soil pathogens be tested from a soil sample, or just from a plant sample? Earlier you stated that if a soil pathogen is present, a soil test won't tell us. How can I find out...this time of year...if my '06 failures were from a soil pathogen? Thanks, again!! Peace, Wayne

11/6/2006 11:03:23 PM

Abbotsford BC

I think Linus is on to something. I had a small plum tree beside one of my gardens and it literally sucked all the energy from the garden--very low yields. Where the tree roots were thickest the soil was rocky and lifeless. If you have been feeding that area with manure and water chances are the tree has worked it's roots into that area and is "sucking the life out of it". First thing my old man taught me was you'll never have a good garden under or near trees. I've seen trees less hardy than maples send roots out 30-40 feet and 3-4 feet underground where there is hardly any nutrients--imagine what they send out where there are nutrients--like in your garden. I'd cut the tree and till the soil deep and see where you are after that.

11/6/2006 11:27:28 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Wayne,

Not in the practical sense that we desire.

If Fusarium Oxysporum has infected the plants, then the soil will harbor the causal pathogen for 2-10 years. Most soils will test positive for fusarium whether plants have shown symptoms or not. Many other plants (crops & weeds) will harbor this disease & never exhibit symptoms. In infected soils Cucurbit plantings will almost certainly test positive regardless whether the plants go into a full wilt condition or not.

I am not aware of any public labs that test the soil for any of the Fusarium species without prior consultation (read: schmoozing big time) if they're capable of testing this way at all. There may be significant fees depending on their funding. Private commercial labs tend to do better work but they'll charge appropriate fees that may prove too costly for the hobbyist.

A regular soil test lab is only looking at the pH & nutrients of the sample. No amount of NPK testing will ever indicate the presence of Fusarium spores.

If spores were present in a sample the best labs will place the sample inside an inoculation chamber. This chamber will be humidity & temperature controlled to present the sample with a set of climatic conditions similar to that needed to hydrate & grow the disease. After a prescribed time (can be days or even weeks) a researcher might be able to find disease hyphae under a microscope. If so, then an ID might be possible. However this is akin to looking for a needle in a haystack. So growing the crop & testing it for disease after symptoms are present is a much more efficient protocol. It also means the end of the season since Fusarium can only be prevented & even then at great financial expense.

High cash value crops are another story. Quick tests are starting to show up for certain Fusarium sp especially in Cotton & Cereal crops. These tests are based on DNA sampling.

If Giant Pumpkins were feeding the world we'd have much better samp

11/6/2006 11:57:30 PM

Selbyville, Delaware

Here is a good site for organic control of diseases and pests
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/resourceguide/cmp/cucurbit.php#d5

11/10/2006 8:38:15 AM

Montoursville, PA

Pennsylvanina's Penn State has a pathological department that tests for pathegons and the cost is shipping only. One must work through the county agricultural representatives to get the paper work that goes along.

I would think Canada would have a similar service somewhere in the agriculture system.

12/11/2006 7:09:10 PM

Nashville, TN

Tremor, What about a possible build up of Tannins from that Maple? In the field studies, Tannins help Maples to limit growth of competition. When I have some extra time, I'll look through EBSCO to see if I can find anything specific.

Regardless of if it's the Maple sucking up all the water/nutrients - or if it's the Maple's Tannins building up... I'd consider removing that particular tree. Maybe off the top of his head, Tremor would have an idea of the lifespan of those tannins?

1/17/2007 2:19:37 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

This is possible. Tannins have a reputation for persistance in solutions though I don't know about soils. Interesting idea....

The tree's roots very likely do grow into that good garden soil. We see that here every year within several weeks of the last tilling.

1/17/2007 2:53:51 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Tremor, you mentioned in your post on 11/6 that "many other plants will harbour this disease and never exhibit symptoms". I sure would like to use this area to grow something while I rest it for AG's. Any list of what I could grow that would harbour fusarium? Veggies in particular. Thanks again for all your help. Peace, Wayne

1/17/2007 10:04:15 PM

Nashville, TN

Found a review article concerning tannins. There's lots of lessons to be learned for those of us with Maple/Oak trees. (this incudes myself!)

Gist of review:

#1 Tannins can make up to 40% of bark & leaves in Maple/Oaks
#2 Tannins can hinder decomposition rate, complexing proteins, induce toxicity to microbial populations and inhibit enzyme activity.
#3 Ecological consequences include allelopathy (inhibits growth of other flora)
#4 Cause changes in soil quality and ability for other flora to absorb nutrients
#5 Reduces overall ecosystem productivity

Haven't found any studies looking at the fate/degredation of tannins within soils.

1/18/2007 3:55:43 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Should proof read better...I meant would "not" harbour fusarium? What can I grow and still clean up the patch? Peace, Wayne

1/18/2007 10:49:33 PM

Montoursville, PA

The only thing that will change a condition like this is a good, patient and consistant dose of the organic basics. Having never been in or around what appears to be a badly nuked area of soil I have no idea how long the recovery may take. I would go to the basics and try different types of cover crops. As soon as you get a cover crop to germinate and grow you are, on your way back.

Don't feel to badly. You just got there a little ahead of a lot of unsuspecting growers and in fact major agricultural growers that are slowly wiping out their biological contents within their soils. The bright side of this is that your area of concern is relatively small and you will have much recovery knowlege by working and observing the biological recovery. You will eventually be able to speak with experience which very few have at this hour.

The basics have never changed.........Manures, composts or elements of compost, remineralization and something growing on the soil at all times. A little Black Strap Molasses to boost things along.

I can almost assure you that first growth back will be quack grass, thistle and blood root....or anything else you may have locally considered hard, to get rid of. :)

1/19/2007 4:17:16 PM