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Georgia

I was wondering about the rate to use. Talstar which I cant afford contains 7.9% bifenthrin as Ortho max only contains .3% Bifenthrin. It says to use 1.5 oz per gallon. I used it last year and still had some problems with svbs. Id like to use it again but I like to up the amount per gallon. What do you pesticide gurus think would be a good ratio to use safely. Thanks for any replys just taking notes for this upcoming season.

1/8/2008 10:05:30 AM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

I used bifenthrin last year with the same content (7.9%) and had no problems at all (had lots of problems without bifen). I use 1/3 ounce per gallon. I don't think you would ever need more than 1/2 ounce per gallon.

Wait for input from Tremor, I would do whatever he suggests, as he has worked with pesticide companies for years.

1/8/2008 3:46:31 PM

Georgia

Yeah Tremor knows his pesticides. JRO the Talstar says it contains 7.9% Bifenthrin but the Ortho-Max only contains 0.3% with a reccomended rate of 1.5 oz per gallon so I guess im just confused if upping the dosage would get it closer to Talstars rating. I just cant afford Talstar and I have lots of unused Ortho-Max. Hopefully Tremor will chime in thanks Jordon.

1/8/2008 4:04:12 PM

southwest MO

Jason,
I'm no Tremor but it appears the Talstar is 26 times stronger than the max...
9 ounces max = 1/3 ounce talstar... Is there other binders or inert ingredients in the MAX that you dont want to spray on your plants at 9 ounce per gallon??? I dont know.
Look around some more for other higher strength Bifen products... I can get the I/T(7.9%) at the co-op for about $24 a pint... Ortho also has a termite product with bifen in it at Lowes...

1/8/2008 5:39:41 PM

Georgia

Boy Genius yeah it just seemed doing some research that I like the Bifenthrin in Ortho Max but I sprayed accordinly to suggested rates and SVBS laughed at it. Then noticing the different amounts in Talstar and Ortho it doesnt even compare. I might have to look around some more and find a product I can fit in my budget. It works great for tomaters and every other veggie but squash and Pumpkins the svbs are uneffected and feed like Rosie O Donnel at a buffet. I was just hoping I could up the dosage to get similar results. I might just have to work a bunch of overtime and buy the Talstar I guess.

1/8/2008 7:32:52 PM

Georgia

Yeah I did some looking and that Bifenthrin i/t(7.9%) is not that pricey at all. Im going with that and will use the ortho on my veggies. So 1/3 to 1/2 and ounce is the correct mixture the labels were kind off confusing. Thanks all

1/9/2008 4:11:47 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

So far all of the math is correct. For those states where Bifenthrin 7.9% is non-RUP, look for the new post-patent formulations like Menace from NuFarm. The price of Menace is down to $75/gallon. I don't even stock Talstar any more.

The strange reality is that NuFarm has improved the manufacturing process to the extent that their Bifenthrin (Menace) is working BETTER than the equal strength Talstar.

Ortho Max is a different animal being a retail preparation. 1.5 oz of a .3% Bifenthrin won't touch SVB but as previously noted, increasing the rate could result in surfactant induced spray injury.

I would start some test seedlings. Mix up some OrthoMax Bifen at 9 oz. Spray the seedlings & see what happens.

1/10/2008 12:20:39 AM

Georgia

Thanks tremor I tried the Ortho max and the solution was to weak for SVBS. I found the Bifenthrin I/T which is 7.9% so I gather 1/3 to 1/2 a ounce a gallon should be the proper mixture. I found it for 29 a pint which isnt bad at all.

1/10/2008 9:50:41 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Yes Jason, that rate will cover it. Spray only when the sun is off the plants for the rest of the day. Focus on hitting ALL stems, vines & leaf stalks. Leaf bottoms too.

1/10/2008 12:29:23 PM

Georgia

Thanks again Tremor your always very helpful

1/10/2008 12:36:14 PM

Tyler County, Texas

Boy, I'm sure glad to find this discussion thread. I assume y'all are general gardeners as well? This matter of substituting bifenI/T for BBG MAX is something I'm dealing with. I have been agonizing over whether I can use bifen 7.9% on my vegetables at the same mixture rate as Bugs B Gone Max. I buy 7.9% by the gal for ants - and the MAX is very high-priced in the quantities I use. I use a 60 gal tractor-mounted sprayer.

My extension agent said that "bifen is bifen", but she also said "we don't know what's in the inert part and must never use a product that's not specifically labelled for the target pest and crop". I/T, of course is labelled only for termites, ants, etc. I have done the math and the mixing rate to equal the 0.3% MAX 1.5oz/gal mixture is one teaspoon/3 gals water. (I had a friend who's an engineer confirm my math).

So, whaddya all think about those inert ingredients? That's my only worry. I can't imagine there's anything harmful there - just solvents, wetting agents, water and stuff - but I just can't be SURE and that bothers me.

I studied up on various bifen products for commercial farm crops and learned that spinach requires 40 days before harvest if bifen is used and sweet corn 20 days. The rest of the vegetables were shorter - a few days - and I noticed that spinach and sweet corn are not included on the MAX label. I'll stick with malathion for the spinach leafminers and corn earworms. I wonder why lettuce is only few days wait and spinach over a month? What's the difference? They're both leaf vegetables!

Glad to be here. Hope I'm not violating forum rules by straying from pumpkins. If so, just ignore my post and have your moderator delete it.

Jack, in East Texas.

2/28/2008 6:10:03 AM

Tyler County, Texas

I'm sorry to bust-in on your punkin' talk. I'm hoping this gentleman, "Tremor", can tell me if I have to worry about the "inert" part of I/T.

I tried a few Atlantic Giant plants once, for the grandkids on halloween, but the vine borers wiped them out. Thanks for the 1/2oz/gal bifen info. That's the ratio I use for fire ants - and it would be okay on punkins since it's a non-food crop. I'm going to put some AG (is that the variety y'all use?) in this year and hit them with I/T when I spray the fire ants.

I'm supposed to pinch-off all fruits but one on each plant, like getting big watermelons, right?

One other question. The old timers around here talk about "punkin blossoms" deep-fried and served with cream gravy like chicken-fried steak. What's that all about? (I won't use the ones sprayed with the ant-strength bifen!)
:-)

Jack

2/28/2008 6:29:17 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Atlantic Giants are sensitive of many things so spraying sould only occur at sundown.

The risk we run with low dose retail preparations certainly does mean that more inert materials lands on the sensiive leaves.

I/T is too new to know whether the inerts will be a problem. I'm not yet aware of whether I/T is water or oil based. Water based suspensions are much easier on the plants.

2/29/2008 12:11:27 AM

Tyler County, Texas

Thank you, Tremor. I do a couple have a couple follow-up questions. I have used I/T (at 1/3 tspn/gal) on delicate flowers and ornamentals for some time without any apparent damage to the plants and I have also tested it on some individual vegetable plants. Doesn't seem to be any problem in that regard.

What's worrying me more is some substances in the inert part that would pose a health/illness risk and won't wash off when the vegetables are prepared. In your experience, do manufacturers of non-crop insecticides commonly put such substances in the inerts? Wouldn't the chances of that be extremely remote?

Thank you so much, sir. I know you have a background in this field and I very much appreciate your advice. Basically, would you personally feel comfortable giving vegetables to your neighbors that had been sprayed a couple weeks earlier with I/T at the very low rate of 1/3 teaspoon per gal of water?

If there's any doubt in your mind, I'll stay with Bugs b Gone and malathion.

Jack

2/29/2008 5:52:37 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Jack,

The inert materials are surfactants (like detergents or soap) & drying agents. They are the same materials used to make agriculture pesticides. Usually the only difference between consumer & Pro agriculture chemicals is the concentration, label & price. Pro stuff has better surfactants & is obviously stronger.

2/29/2008 5:26:30 PM

Tyler County, Texas

Thank you Tremor. I got the message. Very skillful and professional handling of a sensitive question!! It's always better to just state the facts and let the other fellow draw his own conclusions.

I have concluded that I/T used on most vegs (except spinach and sweet corn) in Bugs b Gone concentrations is as safe as BBB itself - at a tiny fraction of the cost since I buy I/T in 3/4 gal jugs ($56.00).

I'm growing to try the big pumpkins again this year - now that I have this forum to browse for info.

Thanks again, JAck

3/2/2008 10:23:45 AM