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Key West, FL

Recent discussion about ants in fruit trees has made me curious about the ants I see in my pumpkin patch. What do you guys think they are doing there and are they a problem?

5/27/2003 1:57:38 PM

porterville, calif.

I would try to get rid of them. They could bring in aphids and white fly. Here when it gets hot the aphids usally leave. Whitefly tend to show up at the end or almost at the end of the season right when you think you have something nice growing and ruin it for you. greg

5/27/2003 2:41:50 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I just now read that Germany has made it a crime to kill ants and that 85 ant protection officers have been appointed.Watch where you're steppin over there guy's!

5/27/2003 6:19:45 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Germany is all messed up. What next????? Fools. I'm embarassed to admit I'm part German.

Ben,

Identification of the Ant species in question is 100% mandatory to determine the need for control & the subsequent process to use. Catch a few. Place in ziploc bag or used pill jar, etc. Bring to extension office. A local pest control person with an honest business office might be willing to do a free look see too. Post result of visit here.

Sorry it's not easier.

Steve

5/27/2003 7:31:37 PM

Key West, FL

They are just little black ants, I'll try to get their name in the next few days.

5/27/2003 8:34:00 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Hey Ben,

If there's any sticky/shiny residue on anything or a blackish sooty mold starting to "happen", then this could be from aphids. Some ants farm aphids. While the ants do us no harm, the aphids sure do. Check for them first.

5/27/2003 9:08:17 PM

Key West, FL

Ok so I just got back from my patch, I think there are 3 types of ants, fireants, black ants, little black ants. Now the bad news, I was looking around and I spotted one aphid, killed it, I'm sure there are more, geuss I got aphids and thats why the ants are around everywhere. I don't know much about what aphids do, so I'll be looking into them and how to get rid of them. What do you find works best, I have sevin already.

5/27/2003 9:50:05 PM

Montoursville, PA

You are about to find out that aphids are the dickens to deal with. I believe you will go nuts trying to read the search and response to the one word aphid.

Apparently they adapt easily into super aphids immune to anything that kills a percentage of them on first use.

A mixed bag of tricks would therefore have some merit. Read up. You are about to be amazed by these creatures.

5/27/2003 11:26:02 PM

Knopp, Germany

After a comment like that Tremer, I am embarressed for you also.

5/28/2003 1:09:32 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Come on Owen. "85 ant protection officers" isn't foolish? If that is accurate, then I stand by what I said. It is nothing short of foolish. And I am not even remotely embarassed to say so. I only pity the poor victims of social politics who are paying for this nonsense.
Honestly, I am so aghast by this Anti-Ant-Killing thing I need to do a Google on it. It seems nearly unbelievable unless this is a beneficial ant whose on the brink of extinction or something. Does this "protected ant" contribute something to the well being of mankind? Cancer research? What gives?
_________________________________________________________

Ben, Watch the Sevin on young growth. Our plants here in the Northeast are virtually nothing more than growing tips & must be treated as such. Very cool humid or very warm weather exacerbates the problem of Sevin on young growth. A lot of Sevin injury around here this year it seems.

Merit works well as a systemic for aphids. Soaps & Oils work as contacts but need to be reapplied often. But watch these in the heat you guys are experiencing. Warrior/Scimitar/Battle (Llambda cyhalothrin) worked very well here for aphids as the Merit was being translocated. And I used it on the only warm days we've had with little to no damage to the plants. One of each was all it took & the Merit will last at least 90 days so long as the plants are vining into treated soil.

To date there has been no generational resistance issues with Merit/Admire/Provado (Imidacloprid) and Aphids. Time will tell though.

Steve

5/28/2003 8:17:18 AM

Knopp, Germany

Steve, it has nothing to do with the ants. Your comments are derogatory. If someone from Germany had said the same thing about the USA, then this post would have been flooded with replys. I guess that through the silence of the majority, that I am way off base on this. Perhaps it is time for me to take a break from this website.

best wishes all, grow em big......owen

5/28/2003 8:32:08 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Owen, please don't leave because of me. The gift of free speach is a very precious one that is only best defended through more speach. Not less.

Perhaps I am the fool here (sort of) for commenting on a subject I knew nothing about.

The Ant protection strategy is for the management of Nun Moths that are destroying northern European Coniferous forests. Pleas see:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_775325.html?menu=news.weirdworld.animaltales

and

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:eg6eH8DLqy8J:www.zb.eco.pl/gb/14/nature.htm+nun+moth+control+ant&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

I still don't like it when a govenment *tells* the people what it can & cannot do. In America the government works for the people. And they better remember that or the voters will.

It seems in Germany you can't destroy the Ant's because the government wants to relocate them to the endangered forests. A nieve though nobel jesture.

My own control stratgy (assuming the ants are effective as a control stratgey in the first place) would be to use the salaries of the 85 officers to set up an ant breeding facility to produce the needed ants. Having the tax payers do the breeding for the government sure sounds like a socialist type gesture & I don't like it.

But we're all entitled to our opinion & the right to express it regardless of the popularity of the view.

For the record. Now that I have researched the subject & better understand it, I still think it's foolish. And I am a board certified arborist (sort of an urban forester) in 3states whose pest management skills are called upon quite frequently by professionals of influence in this area (metro NYC/Northern NJ through CT).

Steve

5/28/2003 8:54:03 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Owen, I do not intend to offend you. I will retract & appologize for my comment that would suggest I think all Germans are fools. Like every other nation (including the USA), Germany has *some* fools.

It's not that I don't think the Ants could be part of an effective control strategy. They might well be. I don't know enough about the Nun Moth since we don't have this problem at this time in numbers to capture my interest.

My opinion is based on my conservative political beliefs.

My big mouth is inheritted from my German maternal grandmother. My strong sense of stubborn passion for all things politically fishy is common to most of my family & probably the result of the blending of several cultures. The German Grandmother married an English Man whose ancestors arrived here on the 2nd or 3rd boat after the Mayflower. They came here to escape this sort of foolishness. Many Americans feel the government deserves & indded requires the critical view of the voters. We actually take pride in remembering that it is a government BY & FOR the people. Not the other way around.

Now would someone please tell me off so Owen believes that open debate is welcomed everywhere?

Darn it's good to be American.

Steve

5/28/2003 9:10:18 AM

Montoursville, PA

I suggest one dose of Merit followed by two horse dumplings laced with Scimitar at the rate of half oucne to the gallon and two tablespoons of black strap molasses to sweeten up following attack of hoof and mouth disease.

5/28/2003 9:40:55 AM

Cologne / Germany

I would like to see the list of references for "85 ant protection officers in Germany". You see what rumours or stupid press coverage may cause.
The fact is we have a protection of species for more than 100 years and a few dozen species of FORESTAL ANTS belonging to that list. Do a google search on what forestal ants do for the ecosystems of the woods so I can´t see anything socialistic in protecting them. I expect that 85 rangers have been employed because we don´t have any (!) in our national parks , not even for catching poachers.
You can kill whatever ant you want if you don´t like them in your garden in your kitchen in your bed. No crime at all, no such law. Never heard such bulls..t.

5/28/2003 9:52:35 AM

Montoursville, PA

Reminds me of an ant story. Seems on bright morning in our American North West there was one lonely remaining huge ant hill. The early morning scouts discovered a pile of wild stallion horse dumplings. They raced back and reported to their queen ant. She immediately dispached a thousand workers to carry out the task of returning the rich food source to the hill. A thousand loyal workers went hence forth. With great skill they rolled the first dumpling to the edge of the huge ant hill. Another thousand joined in the effort. By fractions of an inch that dumpling was moved up the side of the hill. The queen stationed herself at the very top, of the hill. Her antenas were flashing and waving instuctions a mile a minute. Her simple message was, "Boys be carefull with that horse shit". "We need you all to carry the load". :))

5/28/2003 10:12:53 AM

South Hill, Virginia

Owen,

Your probably don't see much of a response because we are more focused on pumpkin growing. Maybe we should table this topic until the winter when we have more time to fight about it:)

5/28/2003 11:16:13 AM

Utah

... i've with Brent... to busy with that plants...
... also i'm trying not to get into any serious arguments
anymore...

5/28/2003 1:07:07 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Owen and Steve, let me say: don't worry about a miserunderstanding. Let it fly, no offense intention behind for sure. You both are two of the kindest AGP growers I know and I want to read your posts here and see your pumpkin pictures. They are a help and and example for all of us.

Grow'em big and friendly, as usual.

Don

5/28/2003 1:57:15 PM

Key West, FL

Oh the wonder of the Message Board Chaos Theory.

5/28/2003 2:06:47 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Ditto Carlos!
Grow em Big!

Chuck

5/28/2003 2:08:27 PM

South Hill, Virginia

Good point Ben....this was a thread about ants wasn't it? :)

5/28/2003 2:46:02 PM

porterville,california usa

well, ya`all know what i think we should do to them ants. nuke`em! heeeee haaaawww!!!

5/29/2003 3:40:34 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Owen,

I am sorry if I offended you with my quick typing fingers. This was not my intent.
I still have many relatives in Germany & do not feel as if I should watch my tongue
just because I do not live there. I am actually much more critical of American liberal
politicians & quite active in this area in other forums (both internet & real world).

If a similar situation was brewing here in America, I would be the first one staging
& speaking at the protest rallies. That is my nature. I hate government getting
too big or involved in the lives of the citizens. I am very active in local politics.
Especially in liberal New York where the majority of my business is done.

Yet now that I have done my own research on this matter, I can see where
there is some merit to the situation in Germany.

But BigPumpkins is probably the wrong place to harp on this subject anyway.
I should have contacted Alun myself or at least researched the matter before
running at the mouth & I didn't. His comment was probably made in jest. But
I took it seriously.

As Floh has indicated, that entire news story is lacking in actual facts. With
so many of the pertinent details missing from the story, the hole argument
is useless anyway. So much for freedom of the press.

Please accept my humble apology. I will also make this public so as to let
all the BP readers know I'm big enough to admit when I'm out of line.

Sincerely,

Steve Jepsen (Tremor) from Stratford, CT USA

____end clip________________

I'm finished with this subject. Hope all involved are growing well. - Steve

5/29/2003 7:17:21 AM

Usa

Steve,
I think all of us know you did not type anything to be derogatory. You have more than apologized to Owen and every other person that is german or partial german.
The US is a right to free speech country. So we tend to take things said less seriously because we all realize that everyone has a right to their own opinion and a right to disagree with anyones opinion.
Your apology was very sincere and heartfelt.

My german side never took offense; it just agreed with my Norwegian side that you were just conversing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ben,
As far as the ants I had thousands of the black fire ants in my pumpkin patch and I killed every single one of them. Within the last 2 weeks we had a 4 month old baby that was taking a nap in a crib. Fire Ants came into the persons home. I guess the whole neighborhood was having a problem with the ants. It is a really nice wealthy neighborhood. The ants bit the babies legs numerous time. The baby died. So I agree with Booth when he says "nuke`em! heeeee haaaawww!!!"

5/29/2003 10:22:41 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

In the interests of international harmony I wish to point out that I have nothing against Germans,or German ants or people who call me Alun.

"Save the Ant"

Mark.

5/29/2003 11:53:29 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Sorry Mark, wrong Englishman.

"Kill the Ants!"

Steve

5/29/2003 2:08:47 PM

Liverpool , England

Hey...I have nothing against the Germans...They gave us a good couple of fights during the last century....now the French...Jeeze they just lay down and cry....waaaaaah waaaah
... Hey steve, I'm not English.... I'm Welsh...but near as damn it.

Alun...not Mark....lol


Lets get growing huh

5/29/2003 7:54:14 PM

Mastic Beach, New York

ok i know what ant looks like,LOL but what does a aphid look like..(like a nat)?not joking!! any pic on this insect

billy

5/29/2003 8:17:06 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Sort of like a knat. But fatter. They are bizarre creatures.
If it benefits their perpetuation, they can produce either sex at will. They assume different colors based on environmental conditions/needs. So the following liks might not look exactly like the ones in certain areas.

http://www.botany.utoronto.ca/ResearchLabs/thalerLab/photo4.htm
_____________________________________________________

look at the middle photo on this one:

http://www.tarleton.edu/~dkattes/IPM/ipm.html
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http://www.flukestudio.com/aphid.html

___________________________________________________

aphid damage to pumpkins:

http://www.entm.purdue.edu/entomology/vegisite/insect_ID_pics/CH14_Squash%20and%20Pumpkins/aphid_damage.jpg
_____________________________________________________

Steve

5/29/2003 8:40:00 PM

Key West, FL

How large is an aphid? What i thought was an aphid, not sure now, was a tiny, almost microscopic, little, translucent skin color, type thing.

5/29/2003 10:28:27 PM

Mastic Beach, New York

thanks, steve...nope just plain old nats..lol

billy

5/29/2003 10:39:47 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

The aphids will vary in size by their maturity.
The smallest ones are about the size of the tip if a pin.
The large mature ones are about as big as the tip of a ball point pen.


Hey Ben - any rose bushes around? aphids really like the new growth tips of roses. Check some out and see if you can find any.

5/30/2003 2:01:29 AM

Key West, FL

Yup, they are on my moms roses too, i think i want to cut those things down now lol. I spray my plants and the roses

5/30/2003 10:12:55 AM

Montoursville, PA

Many if not all can be knocked off with a spray of water. Seldom if ever can they make it back to the position on plant from where you flushed them off.

If any appear the ants brought them back or winged females came by to replenish the clan.

I just flush them off the plants. If they scare me I use oil spray. Smothering them with a summer oil spray seems best to me. They can not become super aphids who do not need to have oxygen. They can and do adapt into super aphids quite easily when hit with so called poison sprays.

In large acre plantings they can be controlled sucessfully with beneficial insects.

5/30/2003 11:54:09 AM

Key West, FL

I sprayed them I ment to say.

5/30/2003 2:06:46 PM