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Ljubljana, Slovenia

I believe that my soil needs more Calcium so I was thinking to cover the soil with lime (CaO). Additionally I hope to eliminate at least some of the pests this way. Is this treatment effective?
Jernej

10/23/2003 6:58:34 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

what's the PH now...Lime is generally used to adjust the Ph higher...not for pests...unless you got some acid loving bugs...to just adjust the calcium why not gypsum...helps break up the clay also...tremor is probably the best for this topic.. chuck

10/23/2003 7:33:03 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

You might want to start off with a soil test and determind your ph value. If your really dead set on adding some calcium look for a finely ground field lime flour. I use a product called Agrocal its 96% Calcium Carbonate, 38% Elemental Calcium. Its made in Green Bay WI. and I get it for 2 buck per 50 lbs bag....good stuff....Dean

10/23/2003 8:51:50 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Thanks for info, I will probably use a combination of lime and gypsum because I can only get those. I know that lime is used to disinfect fish ponds so there I got the idea to reduce my garden fauna. Jernej

10/23/2003 10:07:46 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I am confused.

Dean, Two Dollars? Your Agrocal is Gypsum. But the paper bag & the freight to ship it 100 miles costs more than $2.00. Even if the bag was empty. Do you have the good fortune of living next to the plant that produces the stuff? It's worth more like $8.00.

Jernej, I am concerned that the lime that is being used in aquaculture may be a hydrated lime. You may use this for rapid pH adjustment so long as it's used well in advance of planting. But you must use a light hand with hydrated lime. If that is what you have.

No form of lime will control pests with the possible exception of slugs who just plain don't like crawling over it. Though the caustic nature of hydrated lime is known to cause a burn like effect on some crawling insects & may prevent their becoming as big a problem depending on where & how it is applied.

Or could you be thinking of Bordeaux Mix which is a lime + copper sulphate mixture? It is dusted or sprayed onto leaves for it's antifungal properties. Lime/sulfur is similar. Both are known to burn leaves when not used properly so great care must be exercised with their use.

Before doing anything we should see the results of a good soil test. This will indicate the soils pH as well as the need for any other nutrients that may be needed.

It is true that lime delivers calcium. And pumpkins love calcium. But if the pH is already good, then we should select a different source if calcium is needed. The test results will tell us.

I hope I didn't just confuse this subject even more.

Steve

10/23/2003 9:25:00 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

*Always* get a soil test first, before you do anything..always. Or risk learning the way I did for 2 years..and still tryin' to fix it.
Get a soil test.

10/23/2003 11:14:38 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

For the start I will test pH myself so that I will know what ratio of lime and gypsum to use. In aquaculture they use lime (in empty ponds) which as far as I know becomes hydrated in water. They say it kills viruses which are dangerous for fish. As I imagine lime kills almost everything which is in contact with it. That is only the very surface of soil gets sterilized but maybe this is better than nothing. Thanks again guys, Jernej

10/24/2003 3:53:33 AM

Itzetown City

Sterilized soil is dead soil!

10/24/2003 4:51:02 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Boenke, I agree but we are talking about sterilization of the top layer of soil which is covered with spores of powdery mildew and similar stuff.


PS: My soil is very much alive and because I set up this environment I feel authorized to play God with those organisms I don’t like. And Boenke if you do not like dead soil, what about millions of the organisms which freeze to death during the winter anyway? Do you feel sorry for them and would keep the soil warm to prevent this? Just imagine how many other organisms would be killed or even not allowed to live in the process of the energy production you would need to warm the soil. I say live and let die! Jernej

10/24/2003 6:43:36 AM

Itzetown City

Do which you want, from me from play God, but the wind, which brings you next year PM to stop you will not be able and all your work will be for nothing.
And, I heat the soil for the micro organismens, with horse manure and leaves. The micro organismens say "thanks" and kill the diseases for me and help for healthy strong plants. So simply it is.

10/24/2003 7:07:13 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

get a soil test! a complete one!
you're gambling if you don't....

10/24/2003 7:19:33 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Hold on folks. We have a very serious communication issue on this thread. Locally accepted phrases are causing confusion.

Hydrated lime (in the situation I refered) is also nown a slaked, burnt, or quick lime. Chemically it is known as Calcium hydroxide. It is NOT THE SAME THING as the other items we have discussed. It is also NOT a sterilant.

Please see:

http://www.oglebaynorton.com/prodport_hydratedlime.html

Last time now. Please do not apply anything at all before doing a soil test. While you await the results, look for an accurate & precise chemical name (ie calium sulfate, calcium carbonate, calcium nitrate, calcium hydroxide, etc) so we actually know what it is you're thinking of using. The we can make an informed an educated decision.

We may be on the patch to very poor results otherwise.

This is my last call.

Steve

10/24/2003 7:49:35 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Boenke I did not want to argue with you and the heating of the soil was meant as a joke. I also use natural way of soil heating (in the spring I almost cooked my plant because of excessive chicken manure). But still I believe that killing some spores of PM is better than nothing.

It was not in my plan to do the soil test but since I spend so much time in discussions it is a good idea to do at least something on the ground…
    

10/24/2003 8:52:29 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

Jernej, Your soil test results will tell you what your dirt needs or does'nt need. I personally would wait and see before adding something that could potentially limit the growth of your pumpkins. Good luck Dean

p.s. Steve I do live right next door to Great Lakes Calcium Corporation. I checked my sales receipt and it was $2.95 a 50lb bag for Agrocal. I also bought 2 50lb. bags of "Sweet 45" dry molasses(microbe food) a good deal at $9 a bag. The Wisconsin pumpkin growers don't like to pay alot. lol Dean

10/24/2003 3:09:56 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

WOW! Just goes to show you Dean that some bagged products are virtually free. It's the packaging & freight that we're paying for. That's cool.

Het. One more thing. Powdery Mildew spores don't live in a resting state. Once their hose dies so do the spores. When our plants become infected, it is only by plants grown elsewhere in the world that are also infected. This is the way with Powdery Mildew. There is always an actively growing plant somewhere in the world that is infected. Spores remain alive for only a short time. But once they make the lower atmispheric trade winds, they can circumnavigate the globe infecting any cucurbit they encounter that is growing in a suitable environmental condition. Pretty neat.

Sorry for all the spelling errors this morning. I was rushing out for what might have been the last game of golf this year. Yes. We had a terrific time!

Steve

10/24/2003 6:34:11 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Steve, spreading of PM spores only by winds sounds like science fiction to me. OK, I heard about frozen spiders crossing oceans and similar but it does not seam logical why a spore would not be able to survive winter. The spores are supposed to do just that. Maybe PM comes from tropics. Anyway if this is true the explanation why growers on the north have such successes could be: PM comes to them later in the season. Jernej

10/25/2003 2:47:30 PM

Itzetown City

Making just a course for garden advisors. Ask there today and they said and we also read in a book of Bayer-Chemie both type of PM can survive over winter in earth. "Real PM" is building special Winterspores and "False PM" can survive in infected leaves that left in the ground. Further they said, it´s not recommend to sterilize the soil, because there are some hostplants for overwinter PM.

10/25/2003 4:28:23 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The conidia spores which are the causal pathogen of the version of Powdery Mildew that we see here in the eastern United States is not capable of living without an actively growing host plant. Tou may be dealing with a different type of PM in Europe however. It would be worth the effort to find out exactly what you are dealing with prior to attempting to construct a control strategy.

Please see the Cornell University findings:

Disease Cycle
Sources of initial inoculum for powdery mildew in New York have not been determined. The primary initial inoculum is believed to be airborne conidia originating in southern states, where cucurbit crops are grown earlier in the year. Conidia remain viable for 7-8 days. The causal fungi are obligate parasites and cannot survive in the absence of living host plants, except as cleistothecia. Possible local sources of initial inoculum include conidia from greenhouse-grown cucurbits, cleistothecia, and alternate hosts. Cleistothecia have been sporadically reported in the United States, however, even when present they can be easily overlooked. In New York, they have been observed every year that researchers actively searched for them since 1989. Both mating types required for sexual reproduction have been found throughout the United States, including New York. Although S. fuliginea and E. cichoracearum are described as having broad host ranges, strains of these fungi are host specific. The role of non-cucurbit hosts as sources of inoculum cannot be ascertained without further research.
___end clip________

continued

10/25/2003 11:43:05 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

As you see, it is possible for potentially living spores to *sometimes* overwinter in Cleistothecia (small hard black fruiting body containing ascospores) that are formed the following year & fall off the infected leaves during the summer months. But the researchers nearly always conclude that the early initial infections here in the US are caused by the airborne conidia that arrive much earlier in the season.

I am not aware of any cases ever having been confirmed exclusively by Cleistothecia that survived in the soil.

Either way, lime would have no impact on either causal pathway under any circumstances at all.


Steve

10/25/2003 11:43:21 PM

wilmington,ma.

Way to go Steve

10/26/2003 9:11:03 AM