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Roanoke Il

Dwaine Whats the best natural fungicides to use and insecticides to control they different problem insects and fungal problems a grower faces. I would like to grow organticly but I'm on the wire. I have used a a product with neem oil with some success to but on the other hand I have used some chemicals on the same plant to. I would like not to use all organtic but one doesn't want to waste a season buy loosing it to bugs an fungi.

3/13/2004 9:38:44 AM

Montoursville, PA

I use the Garden's Alive products when my basic soil management and growing teniques do not work perfectly...They seldom do.

Basically I have my humus up to 17.6%. I did that over the years adding lots and lots of manures and composts. I use almost 100% percent organic fertilization in the soil. I use Fertrell and North Country Organics products. The individual products are selected based on my soil tests. A few of the organic product makers are including a large amount of corn meal in this year's offering. I add cornmeal yearly to work as a bad fungi fighter. It works really well and may be largely responsible for the fact I have little fungi problems.

Gardens Alive have acceptable fertilizers, insecticides and fungicides. A few other sources are fine. Last year a home brew fertilizer was mentioned here. At the time I made a batch and used it successfully. I find it more desirable to just purchase the little I need.

A good foliar program is likely imperative..an absolute must, in my opinion, for a healthy patch direction. A couple of things need to be considered here: AGRO-K is a good healthy patch plan. It is not totally organic by purist standards. It works fine....better than any self designed growing support programs I have ever devised in fifty years of gardening. Although I am a hobby person their foliar program is being spoken highly of in commercial growing circles. It can be made totally organic if you so desire. Their Vigor Cal-Phos is a dandy product that very much prevents fungi getting a foot hold.

The fish, kelp and molasses feeds and maintains a healthy patch. This would be mostly foliar but in early spring and late fall I use it to boost the bacteria...along with a little more Symbex from AGRO-K.

3/13/2004 6:17:17 PM

Montoursville, PA

My own personal experience and what I hear from others on this board is that backing out and away from synthetics takes guts, time, patience and process a bit different for each of us. Since beginning to grow pumpkins I have had more difficulty than any other time period in my fifty years of growing.

Maybe this has helped a little. Keep trying and you will have success..a little here and there. Having some success in this move to less dependence on synthetics is a pleasure once accomplished.

In your spare time one of your answers may be found at North County Organics site. At least go there a and read carefully. This was my move to improve this year. I am excited to realize that this makes more sense than that which I thought I knew up to this point about healthy patch.

I know there are others here using some different approaches in foliar feeding and accomplishing successful direction or healthy patch management. They chip in sometimes when I discuss this subject.

3/13/2004 6:24:24 PM

Montoursville, PA

Perhaps I should wrap this up by saying that at least two Pennsylvania Heavy Hitters and many of their student growers run darn near chemical free fertilization programs.
Craig Lembke, the AGRO-K rep. Owns grape vineyards and grows pumpkins as a hobby, is a very healthy patch person. I am too. I will coach accordingly when ask.

I doubt if anyone of the above would fail to do what had to be done rather than watch a patch go down uncontrolled by hard headed single lined organic principles. None would use harsh chemicals without a perceived absolute need. They all run the most chemical free properties, patches or gardens I have seen in the average of what I see.

3/13/2004 6:42:01 PM

Long Island,New York

I dont hink cornmeal does squat for borers or white flies or aphids or squashbugs...or powdery mildew, or any of the other airborn fungi........and I like Starbucks....G

3/13/2004 7:00:27 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

I'm sorta with G on this one doc. While I do my best to improve my OM and things and have a long term plan on where my garden should be. I doubt very much That I would considr not going without throwing 10-10-10 or the like at the beginning of each season...and not to excess but less then recommended...but when it comes to borers/cukes and the such without any protection would be foolish....I put up a deer fence and if they ever have a systemic for wood chucks watch out...believe me doc I love the teas and the compost but there has to be a mid ground here....you took years to get the patch where ya are...some of us don't have the time or money....lobsta was throwing 800 lbers his first year and he put thhe patch together over a season...don't scare off the new guys by telling em it will take years to get a good patch or pumpkin...We live/learn and share our triumphs and failure here to get eveyone growing...See ya in Niagara and we can shoot the bull and debate the pros and cons...Chuck

3/13/2004 7:50:10 PM

Montoursville, PA

Chuck and others.........Please go back and read the persons original question. I believe I answered it to the best of my ability. It matters not to me what you do but I stood here and watched my patch reverse dramatically last summer because I used harsh chemicals believing one absolutely had to do that to get a nice fruit.

I followed the Chemical Pied Pipers to the letter using nothing but the best. Using nothing but the finest instruction from the highest and best educated person I ever met on the other side of a chemical bag. Frankly the products did not work. Factually they nuked my patch. Factually I never should have alowed myself to be sucked into that pattern. I knew better. Now I shall be backing out to just get back to where I started.

My decisions may include the fact that I would elect to not grow the pumpkin because I may elect to respect my soil to a greater level than subjecting it to the poisons needed to maintain the art of growing pumpkins. It's fun but I have a problem with kicking the daylights out of the biological ballences I have grown with for more than fifty years.

I have never said it takes years to grow a nice pumpkin. I have said consistantly if one wishes to back out of chemical dependency it will be, in most cases, be a process because the soils are ruined biologically, by past practices.

I'm sorry I introduced some of you to a strong headed succussfull very healthy patch gardeneing philosophy. God help me if I had suggested purely organic. There is no happy medium. The "stuff" we do either builds or kills. The less killing we do the more natural building we can do. Synthetic fertilizer always kills. Osamocote always leaches it slowed down killing power to imitate the growth success shown when natural bacteria are maintained to create growth of equal or better quality all summer.

3/13/2004 11:15:11 PM

Montoursville, PA

Every time I make a presentation like this I hear from more than a few who think and attempt to practice in a healthy patch manor. To those I encourage your E. I can't blame them for not speaking up here. I will not be sour grapes or a thorn in anyone's side to any great degree in the future.

I wish to thank the many of you who have taken the leadership suggestions of those who may be able to help you grow without as many harsh chemicals as you have in the past. I look forward to a couple of you being very close to chemical free this summer.

When and if any serious healthy patch fellowship develops here if someone would wake me up I might enjoy the fellowship and companionship. In the meantime I do not want a single application of 10-10-10 or most any other harsh synthetic chemical kicking my patch all out of whack like they did last summer.

3/13/2004 11:25:11 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I agree with most, if not all, of what Dwaine says about soil building. I've read the books, done lots of research, spent the time at the Ag offices educating myself, and goodness knows, my patch dirt is looking looser and blacker each month....tests like crazy now too :0)
BUT...I'm not about to try and play Mr. Nice Organic Man with SVB, Downy Mildew, and Gummy Stem Blight, this is *my* middle ground. I'll be using Warrior Z and have my Ridomil and a few other things in the toolbox ready and waiting. I don't see, and can't find, any natural organic products that can lay claim to or be effectice against these pests and diseases, which can wipe my season out in a matter of days. Uh-huh, not happening here. Sure, I plan to fish, kelp, and molasses foliar my patch to death this year but that's only a feeding and some preventative measure, not bonafide protection in my opinion.
Guess I'll just have to keep rebuilding each year what I *may* be destroying with the insecticides and fungicides..show me some proof studies? I don't think there will be that much because I won't be using systemics, so I think any damage will be very minimal..if any.

3/14/2004 6:50:40 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Oh yes, I'll be doing the compost tea foliar too but has it shown to prevent or deter any pests or diseases? I keep hearing it does but am not seeing any proof offered. It's common since to me that it's probably a fantastic fertilizer, but I'm not gambling my season on it protecting the plants.....or the fish, seaweed, milk, mama's home cookin', etc.

3/14/2004 6:54:38 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

"sense" not since, duh

3/14/2004 6:55:20 AM

Roanoke Il

Thanks Dwaine for your Input. Didn't mean for this to be anything negitve just wanted to hear from the other side of the fence. I think that you and Steve have contributed to big pumpkins greatly in the past two years or so. Keep up the great work. Mark

3/14/2004 10:36:56 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Hey Mark, on my end I wasn't trying to be negative. Because of Dwaine, I've turned my patch soil completely around and headed in the right direction I believe. But when it comes to certain pests such as borers and fungus's like blight and mildew, I want to see as much convincing evidence for NOT using non-systemic pesticides/fungicides as I've seen for eliminating chemical fertilizers as much as possible. It only takes 1 incident and several days to wipe out your season as you know, which is what you're hoping to prevent per your post.

3/14/2004 12:59:04 PM