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Enumclaw, Washington

i BELIEVE THIS IS AN F1 CROSS OR IS THAT THE NEXT GENERATION. i AM LOOKING FOR THE GENETICS STUDIES OF THIS. i BELIEVE SCOTT HOLUB HAD A GREAT ARTICLE/WRITE UP ON THIS SEVERAL YEARS BACK BUT I CANT FIND IT. MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN THE PGVG NEWSLETTER. I APPRECIATE ANY HELP OR POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. I PRETTY MUCH HAVE THE EQUINE GENETICS DOWN OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS WITH OUT-CROSSES AND LINE-BREEDING ETC. PUMPKIN PLANTS AND SQUASH ARE A WHOLE DIFFERENT GAME. I BELIEVE IT WAS ABOUT A 25% CHANCE FOR COLOR BUT i CAN'T REMEMBER HOW IT PROGRESSES FROM F1 TO F2 TO F3 ETC. i KNOW THERE ARE A BUNCH OF SCIENTISTS AND PHD TYPES THAT ARE GROWERS. THANKS FOR ANY HELP.

1/25/2024 1:57:34 AM

Grittyville, WA

I think its 1/4 chance of green for the F2, unless both parents had recessive white genes (which is likely), then it drops to as low as 1/8 or 1/16? Yes, the article by Holub would be helpful. I believe Scott started with 8-12 plants and despite getting a squash he still managed to snag a recessive white gene, which still occasionally pops up. The ideal squash x AG would be a pure green lineage crossed with a strong AG lineage that has no recessive white gene. The recessive genes are good at hiding so its anyone's guess, but the lighter green squash and lighter orange pumpkins are almost certainly hiding a recessive white gene... and I think even the darker ones can hide this gene. It might be very complex, it might be an 8x8 punnet square, there might 64 possible outcomes if there are two recessive genes. But the odds of green would still remain roughly in the 1/4 to 1/16 range.

Some plants like corn are polyploidy which basically runs the punnet square out into a punnet cube, so in corn you'd have 8x8x8= 512 gene combinations. I dont think AGs or squash are as complex as corn though.

Not a scientist, but I may have been the only kid who paid attention om 8th grade biology... lol.

1/25/2024 4:11:46 PM

Grittyville, WA

F1 F2 F3...

Maybe this is excessive info, but the 1677 I grew was from an F1 cross: 1838 Jutras x 2145 Mcmullen. I had zero expectation of green (green is recessive). Pure AG x pure greenie should not give any green fruit.

But in the F2 (in this case, the F1 momma plant x self) I think there would be a 3/4 chance of light or medium orange (possibly with recessive green), a 1/16 chance of white (with recessive green?), a 2/16 chance of light green, and a 1/16 chance of dark green.

For a light green F3 there would be a 1/4 chance of white, a 1/2 chance of light green, and a 1/4 chance of dark green? Ive seen this exact outcome in my own garden. But then again, this might be oversimplified, there could be yet another layer of recessive genes lurking out there.

The thing I dont know is if white (w) and green (g) occupy the same loci, (ww, wg, or gg cominations...) or if they are independent from each other (ww gg) (w- g-) (ww -g) (-w --) (-- gg) etc.

Yup, I need to shut up and let a real expert answer this one. If my knowledge was a cliff, then I would have just fallen off.

1/25/2024 4:57:40 PM

Enumclaw, Washington

Good info thank you. about 40 years ago I could write the programs for 6x6, 9x9 and higher matrix's for orbit transfers and 2-body and 3-body problems. Now i have to ask a kid to program my I-Phone. The Mendellian genetics and studies is extremely interesting and challenging. I remember asking my Vet for some help and he pretty much said this was not his favorite class. I believe UC Davis and U of Colorado have all the Equine experts. Not sure where the plants geneticists experts are other than Big Pumpkin. Would probably make a great dissertation project for a PHD candidate looking for a topic.

1/25/2024 10:27:26 PM

Bethlehem CT

Definitely not an expert, Brandon what you say about the white recessive gene is interesting to me. I have always suspected that there is a link between the dark orange ag's and squash. Adam Wheeler (big wheels) told me that years ago he planted a 670 daigle (arguably one of the best big and orange seeds of all time) seed and it grew a gorgeous squash. He thought he was swindled, but I have always wondered, because unless the swindler was really dumb he could have used just about any other common orange seed and never had any one doubt it's authenticity. I know dave cantrell has grown some gorgeous orange when he was expecting all green. Based on my thoughts, observations, and gut instinct If I were going to reincorporate AG into the squash I would choose something with the 1109 Jutras genetics, coupled with some really consistent big and orange. Not sure if the 1885 is stable orange enough. (my 1885 was whitish) Maybe the 2006 wolf would be a better choice or perhaps the 1486 rodebaugh.

1/26/2024 8:36:41 AM

Bethlehem CT

I meant to say "I am definitely not an expert".

1/26/2024 8:39:04 AM

These 2 links might give you what you are looking for. Also if you search bathabitat you might find some discussions.


http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?season=2015&grower=50353&action=L

http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?season=2016&grower=50353&action=L

1/26/2024 11:48:47 AM

These 2 links might give you what you are looking for. Also if you search bathabitat you might find some discussions.


http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?season=2015&grower=50353&action=L

http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?season=2016&grower=50353&action=L

1/26/2024 11:48:47 AM

Grittyville, WA

@ bigmoon
I think in farther back in the past folks underestimated the issue of pollen cross contamination. Bees will crawl up into a paper bag or under a plastic cup, or they'll be out at 7 am just before the grower gets to the flower, or they will drop pollen down through a mesh covering tied around the flower. Or theyll deposit foreign pollen onto the male before its used, etc. There are improbable little gaps so maybe its not that he was swindled maybe its like the quote from the movie Jurassic park, "nature finds a way."

This reminds me... there was recently a woman who got pregnant in prison despite being isolated from any males, or so they thought... Nature is similarly tricky and only our hindaight is 20/20. We can't see how certain things could happen until after we are confronted with some evidence that they did happen.

I won't venture to guess which lineages would be free from recessive white genes, someone else can try to figure that out. The 1885.5 as you note is a good example of one that is a cross of two orange pumpkins but it still throws white ones occasionally.

The nice thing about plant breeding for a single trait is that while you could get all high tech & scientific about it, old fashioned hard work and basic observations is also sufficient.

1/26/2024 2:18:31 PM